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People's obsession with the academy

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rikz Flag Croydon 02 Nov 23 2.06pm Send a Private Message to rikz Add rikz as a friend

Keep reading posts saying how we should be bringing through youth, we've invested in the academy, we're cat A ect. Defending the clubs transfer strategy, instead of wasting money use the academy and produce players.

5% of players playing in the Premier league come through Premier league academies, that's about 25 players. On average, players in the prem are probably between 18-34 so that's every Premier league club producing 1.3 players a season between them.

You're living in dream world if you think we're going to be consistently producing players to a Premier league standard. Its the best league in the world, full of the best players in the world, so already you have a population of 70 million competing against 8 billion. Mathematically its impossible. You could chuck 100 million a year at the academy, it won't make a difference.

 

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southnorwoodhill Flag 02 Nov 23 2.18pm Send a Private Message to southnorwoodhill Add southnorwoodhill as a friend

I go by what Parish said and the fanfare during the opening, the gist of which was for the Academy to provide home grown players instead of spending large transfer fees and thus enriching other clubs, and creating a revenue stream of our own.
Laudable and sensible enough, how realistic this will prove to be only time can tell.

Edited by southnorwoodhill (02 Nov 2023 2.21pm)

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 02 Nov 23 3.20pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by rikz

Keep reading posts saying how we should be bringing through youth, we've invested in the academy, we're cat A ect. Defending the clubs transfer strategy, instead of wasting money use the academy and produce players.

5% of players playing in the Premier league come through Premier league academies, that's about 25 players. On average, players in the prem are probably between 18-34 so that's every Premier league club producing 1.3 players a season between them.

You're living in dream world if you think we're going to be consistently producing players to a Premier league standard. Its the best league in the world, full of the best players in the world, so already you have a population of 70 million competing against 8 billion. Mathematically its impossible. You could chuck 100 million a year at the academy, it won't make a difference.

I think you'd need to define what you mean by 'consistently producing' - I don't think anyone is expecting 5 first teamers a year, but I don't think it's living in dream world to think we can produce a player capable of contributing to our squad every year or two.

Assuming the 5% statistic is in relation to debutants - ie. there will be roughly 25 debutants this season from academies.

The volume of players currently playing in the Premier League who have come through academies is obviously significantly higher than that - nearly every English or British player in the division is going to have come through a PL or EFL academy.

If every club is giving more than one academy player a year a debut, I don't think there's anything unrealistic in thinking you can supplement your squad with these type of players.

In terms of the 'why'; for me it's one of the most enjoyable parts of supporting a club; watching a young kid who has come through the ranks make it to the top level is hugely satisfying.

 

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Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 02 Nov 23 3.27pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I think you'd need to define what you mean by 'consistently producing' - I don't think anyone is expecting 5 first teamers a year, but I don't think it's living in dream world to think we can produce a player capable of contributing to our squad every year or two.

Assuming the 5% statistic is in relation to debutants - ie. there will be roughly 25 debutants this season from academies.

The volume of players currently playing in the Premier League who have come through academies is obviously significantly higher than that - nearly every English or British player in the division is going to have come through a PL or EFL academy.

If every club is giving more than one academy player a year a debut, I don't think there's anything unrealistic in thinking you can supplement your squad with these type of players.

In terms of the 'why'; for me it's one of the most enjoyable parts of supporting a club; watching a young kid who has come through the ranks make it to the top level is hugely satisfying.

All good points.

Also, can't remember the statistic, but a massive proportion of PL players came within a small radius of SE London. We're right in the middle of that talent pool and as a stable PL club (surely the plan) would be foolish not to tap into it.

It's an investment hoping to pay long term dividends. I can probably easily rattle off a number of signings we've made in the past decade who have jointly cost more than the academy yet have probably made less of a contribution to the first team than I serve by shouting from the stands all these years.

I am a massive pessimist and inclined to scorn people when they rave about x, y and z as though we have ready made Zidane, Pele or Maradona's to walk into the team but it seems a wise business move that certainly holds the potential to bear fruit.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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rikz Flag Croydon 02 Nov 23 3.30pm Send a Private Message to rikz Add rikz as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I think you'd need to define what you mean by 'consistently producing' - I don't think anyone is expecting 5 first teamers a year, but I don't think it's living in dream world to think we can produce a player capable of contributing to our squad every year or two.

Assuming the 5% statistic is in relation to debutants - ie. there will be roughly 25 debutants this season from academies.

The volume of players currently playing in the Premier League who have come through academies is obviously significantly higher than that - nearly every English or British player in the division is going to have come through a PL or EFL academy.

If every club is giving more than one academy player a year a debut, I don't think there's anything unrealistic in thinking you can supplement your squad with these type of players.

In terms of the 'why'; for me it's one of the most enjoyable parts of supporting a club; watching a young kid who has come through the ranks make it to the top level is hugely satisfying.

Well let's look at players we've produced, not sure where every academy player in the prem is from but the England squad is usually made up of about 50% of players from London. So we're fairly good at producing players and have the benefit of being a London club. Over the last 20 years, players who can perform at this level. Moses, Clyne, Wilf, awb and Mitchell, 3 had the luxury of developing in the championship and one Is just good enough. That's 1 player every 4 years.

In the championship having a good academy gives us a massive advantage but when you've got fans moaning at the manager to give the youngsters a chance. The fact is 99.9% are not and will never be good enough to play at this level.

 

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Teddy Eagle Flag 02 Nov 23 3.39pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

All good points.

Also, can't remember the statistic, but a massive proportion of PL players came within a small radius of SE London. We're right in the middle of that talent pool and as a stable PL club (surely the plan) would be foolish not to tap into it.

It's an investment hoping to pay long term dividends. I can probably easily rattle off a number of signings we've made in the past decade who have jointly cost more than the academy yet have probably made less of a contribution to the first team than I serve by shouting from the stands all these years.

I am a massive pessimist and inclined to scorn people when they rave about x, y and z as though we have ready made Zidane, Pele or Maradona's to walk into the team but it seems a wise business move that certainly holds the potential to bear fruit.

The figure quoted in 2016 was that 14% of Premier League players came from South London. Our catchment area has a good chance of producing players and with the way transfer fees are increasing that has to be a good thing.

[Link]

 

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Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 02 Nov 23 3.42pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

The figure quoted in 2016 was that 14% of Premier League players came from South London. Our catchment area has a good chance of producing players and with the way transfer fees are increasing that has to be a good thing.

[Link]

Cheers and well done Teddy.

Yep, and we should certainly hold a financial and attraction advantage over our neighbours for a bigger slide of that cake.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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Teddy Eagle Flag 02 Nov 23 3.47pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Cheers and well done Teddy.

Yep, and we should certainly hold a financial and attraction advantage over our neighbours for a bigger slide of that cake.

A slide of cake with our injury record? It's madness I tell you.

 

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Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 02 Nov 23 3.52pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

A slide of cake with our injury record? It's madness I tell you.

I was thinking in Neil Shipperley sized portions! Is it OK to mention him anymore or are we in dangerous territory there? Brolin a better option perhaps?

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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taylors lovechild Flag 02 Nov 23 4.23pm Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

The academy is not just about growing players from tots to pros, it is also a place where we can develop young players that we pick up from lower leagues at home or abroad and then see if we can either move them into the first team or sell them for a profit. We already got a six-figure fee for O'Brien, who we only paid 25k for. Killian Phillips will likely earn us at least a five-figure fee if he doesn't make it with us, while JRS would likely earn us at least a couple of million as it stands. That's ignoring the likes of AWB and Mitchell who actually did step up. The more successful our academy the more chance we have of attracting the top youth players. Personally I'm quite excited about what it might produce in a few years time.

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 02 Nov 23 4.27pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by rikz

Well let's look at players we've produced, not sure where every academy player in the prem is from but the England squad is usually made up of about 50% of players from London. So we're fairly good at producing players and have the benefit of being a London club. Over the last 20 years, players who can perform at this level. Moses, Clyne, Wilf, awb and Mitchell, 3 had the luxury of developing in the championship and one Is just good enough. That's 1 player every 4 years.

In the championship having a good academy gives us a massive advantage but when you've got fans moaning at the manager to give the youngsters a chance. The fact is 99.9% are not and will never be good enough to play at this level.

We’ve only had an elite academy set up for a short time - I don’t think the last 20 years are particularly relevant. If anything, the fact we’ve still produced international standard footballers despite very poor infrastructure and facilities is testament to how possible it is.

Of course the majority aren’t going to make it to this level; that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying - the upsides are enormous when you do find a gem; see Wilf in terms of owning a player far superior to anything you’d be able sign, and see AWB in terms of the huge commercial benefit.


 

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TheBigToePunt Flag 02 Nov 23 4.53pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

I've always thought that if your first team becomes good enough to generate enough income to pay for a Cat A academy to attract the better kids, then it's probably very difficult for even the better youth players to get in that team. If, on the other hand, your team is poor enough that the better youth team players have a good chance to get in it, then you probably can't afford a Cat A academy and won't have the better kids at your club!

Either way, it doesn't matter if you call it an academy or just a plain old youth team, the fact is that almost nobody manages to sustain the production of more than one first-team squad player a year, on average, at best.

I appreciate that South London is a bigger catchment area than most (probably in the world) and that it produces an awful lot of players. It makes sense to try and tap that, but I doubt anyone thinks we will one day be producing a home-grown XI.

All the money we have spent is not to produce three or four players a year for the first team, or to produce a new Zaha every year, or even a lottery win like AWB. The point is to produce a squad player for the first team. A Mitchell.

The sad fact is that all that money and effort is necessary just to have a chance to produce that one squad player, and not fall behind everyone else and lose decent kids to other clubs.

Like the new stand, it's all about huge expenditure just to stay still, or even to reduce the amount of slipping backwards that we do.

For me, a good summer of recruitment would involve one good, experienced free transfer, one expensive high-profile 'marquee' signing, one bargain, and one youth team graduate. Most summers won't be like that, but it is necessary to have all four taps running all the time, just to give us the best options.

 

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