I think there is obviously a lot of validity in your critiques of the EU, but I think they ignore a couple of big problems which we face at the minute.

Leaving the EU was, supposedly, a chance for us to 'take back control' from an undemocratic, corrupt and overweening economic and political bloc. We were becoming sovereign again, so we were told. The issue as I see it is that the EU is merely one of many political unions which Britain finds itself in. We are, as you say, part of NATO, and as such are obliged to follow certain defence spending targets, although NATO too are an incredibly non-democratic institution. We take loans from thee IMF, and very well may be doing so again soon, and the conditions for these loans are often punitive economic restrictions. And of course we have allowed our capital city to become the playground of global finance, who hold no particular national allegiance, pay risible sums of tax and insist on certain political conditions in order to give some shine to our GDP figures.

Then there are the international trade deals, private and extra-state development schemes etc., many of which are so shady that they provide no public recordings of their decisions, and all of which aim to tie the hands of our elected officials.

The problem for me is that there was a legitimate argument raised with Brexit, which critiqued the international capital as being prohibitive of political autonomy. But it wasn't sophisticated enough to see the full picture, instead focusing on only one instance of this reality. It's a bit like playing Man City and deciding that De Bruyne is so dangerous, that you get your whole team to mark him out of the game. But meanwhile, Aguero and Sane are left free to do as they please.

Now we're at the ironic stage whereby our lack of coherency will mean we are even more dependent on institutions like the World Bank, the IMF and global financial services to prop up our legislation and economy. All three insist on certain spending rules, certain policy decisions, without even one directly accountable body, which the EU at the very least had.

All the while our goveernment seems to be so paralysed by their newfound sense of autonomy and sovereignty that they have no idea what to do, as if they'd spent the past 4 decades having decisions made for them, and now that their carer isn't here, they throw a tantrum and do nothing.

That's just the perception that people like Farage & Johnson have created to get you to vote for them. Their lies clearly worked.

The 'EU' is made up of 28 nations. All 28 have to agree on nearly everything before it's made into any kind of EU wide law. That means everyone has agreed, even your government. You might not like the decision but it's no different than a local law being made that you don't like. The EU has been made a scapegoat for so many UK centric issues by the British for years. In doing so, they've effectively been blaming the other 27 nations for their issues, it's always someone else's fault. Of course that will continue for decades to come.

Edited by europalace (30 Jul 2018 7.29pm)

The EU blame game should end, it is harmful to us.

Our biggest problem has nothing whatever to do with the EU, its is our productivity.

We are accustomed to the comparisons that a french worker works 4 days to achieve what a british worker needs 5 days for, as an example.

We are only a democratic society in a very minor way, we are and have been controlled particularly by the banks and corporations since the crash of 2008.

They have no interest in raising wages, consequently workers cannot input into the economy and create demand, thus improving productivity.

The economic team I have just been listening to in London say that the UK is 'petering out' and it is a shame as we will be missed.

But they were very quick to hone in on the wage depression in the UK and their view of the UK as a Lprds/Serfs society.

The Lords are the people you are 'returning control' to.

That's just the perception that people like Farage & Johnson have created to get you to vote for them. Their lies clearly worked.

The 'EU' is made up of 28 nations. All 28 have to agree on nearly everything before it's made into any kind of EU wide law. That means everyone has agreed, even your government. You might not like the decision but it's no different than a local law being made that you don't like. The EU has been made a scapegoat for so many UK centric issues by the British for years. In doing so, they've effectively been blaming the other 27 nations for their issues, it's always someone else's fault. Of course that will continue for decades to come.

Edited by europalace (30 Jul 2018 7.29pm)

Hmm. What he says is all fact save the opinion that the anti-EU lobby blame many problems that are of our own making on the EU.

He has failed to give specific examples of this. You have failed to give any examples where there is a clear line between EU act and our misfortune.

Sad, as I am sure there are numerous instances of both and this pointless discussion could rumble on for a few hundred pages.