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Palacetinian Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 4.31pm
The lead piece in Today's Mail explains what the people are facing in Gaza without electricity and the virtual collapse of the hospital system. [Link] Even sane strong supporters of Israel have been pointing out that such a barbaric onslaught against a civilian population doesn't help Israel in the long run as it creates another generation of people with a grievance. [Link] Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!
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Palacetinian

Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 4.31pm

The lead piece in Today's Mail explains what the people are facing in Gaza without electricity and the virtual collapse of the hospital system.

[Link]

Even sane strong supporters of Israel have been pointing out that such a barbaric onslaught against a civilian population doesn't help Israel in the long run as it creates another generation of people with a grievance.

[Link]

Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!

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Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 4.40pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 1.56pm Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 12.34pm There are some legitimate complaints about the route of the barrier.....But despite the claims of many people before it went up....It has bought down the number of suicide bombings in Israel significantly. Those who argue against a barrier being there are arguing for increased death on the Israeli mainland. Ludicrous - of course they are not. You really spout complete b******s. Not everyone has the limited vision you appear to possess. That is the practical result of no barrier. Again, provide rational argument rather than insults. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

03 Aug 14 4.40pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 1.56pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 12.34pm

There are some legitimate complaints about the route of the barrier.....But despite the claims of many people before it went up....It has bought down the number of suicide bombings in Israel significantly.

Those who argue against a barrier being there are arguing for increased death on the Israeli mainland.

Ludicrous - of course they are not. You really spout complete b******s. Not everyone has the limited vision you appear to possess.

That is the practical result of no barrier.

Again, provide rational argument rather than insults.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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legaleagle 03 Aug 14 4.40pm
Salutary reading [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)
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legaleagle

03 Aug 14 4.40pm

Salutary reading

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)

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Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 4.45pm
Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 2.53pm Here's a surprise - Gaza has bn worth of gas deposits under it, and Israel faces an energy crisis. Surely there's no connection between these facts...is there? Would Israel really launch a massacre of innocent civilians, under the guise of destroying Hamas, merely to secure its energy supplies? You decide.... [Link] I decided a while ago when Nick put the same argument forward. The practical consequences of controlling Gaza's gas reserves (for Israel also have) make no sense. They would have to take over control of Gaza to control the gas extraction.....Why do they need to do that when they along with Egypt control the border? You can't sell what you can't export. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

03 Aug 14 4.45pm

Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 2.53pm

Here's a surprise - Gaza has bn worth of gas deposits under it, and Israel faces an energy crisis. Surely there's no connection between these facts...is there? Would Israel really launch a massacre of innocent civilians, under the guise of destroying Hamas, merely to secure its energy supplies? You decide....

[Link]

I decided a while ago when Nick put the same argument forward.

The practical consequences of controlling Gaza's gas reserves (for Israel also have) make no sense.

They would have to take over control of Gaza to control the gas extraction.....Why do they need to do that when they along with Egypt control the border?

You can't sell what you can't export.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 4.48pm
Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm Salutary reading [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm) Good article. The whole thing is pointless. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

03 Aug 14 4.48pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm

Salutary reading

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)

Good article.

The whole thing is pointless.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Palacetinian Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 4.52pm
Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm Salutary reading [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm) Indeed. So is this... VIEW FROM ISRAEL It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel? I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous. GIDEON LEVY [Link] Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!
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Palacetinian

Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 4.52pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm

Salutary reading

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)

Indeed. So is this...

VIEW FROM ISRAEL
It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel?
I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous.
GIDEON LEVY

[Link]

Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!

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Seth On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 5.03pm
Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.52pm Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm Salutary reading [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm) Indeed. So is this... VIEW FROM ISRAEL It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel? I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous. GIDEON LEVY [Link] In the same vein: Israel Provoked This War It’s up to President Obama to stop it. By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014 [Link] "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 5.03pm

Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.52pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm

Salutary reading

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)

Indeed. So is this...

VIEW FROM ISRAEL
It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel?
I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous.
GIDEON LEVY

[Link]

In the same vein:

Israel Provoked This War
It’s up to President Obama to stop it.
By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014

[Link]

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Palacetinian Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 5.25pm
Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 5.03pm Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.52pm Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm Salutary reading [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm) Indeed. So is this... VIEW FROM ISRAEL It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel? I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous. GIDEON LEVY [Link] In the same vein: Israel Provoked This War It’s up to President Obama to stop it. By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014 [Link] Seth. The author also appears in this video - he is a former Zionist who now believes Israel needs to make peace and give Palestinians a homeland to end decades of enmity. [Link] Turns out he also is a visiting professor at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies, a college I know well. Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!
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Palacetinian

Surrey Fam 03 Aug 14 5.25pm

Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 5.03pm

Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.52pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm

Salutary reading

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)

Indeed. So is this...

VIEW FROM ISRAEL
It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel?
I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous.
GIDEON LEVY

[Link]

In the same vein:

Israel Provoked This War
It’s up to President Obama to stop it.
By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014

[Link]

Seth. The author also appears in this video - he is a former Zionist who now believes Israel needs to make peace and give Palestinians a homeland to end decades of enmity.

[Link]

Turns out he also is a visiting professor at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies, a college I know well.

Supporting Crystal Palace since 19.45 on 29th August 1972 (approximately)!

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Seth On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 5.33pm
Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 5.25pm Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 5.03pm Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.52pm Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm Salutary reading [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm) Indeed. So is this... VIEW FROM ISRAEL It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel? I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous. GIDEON LEVY [Link] In the same vein: Israel Provoked This War It’s up to President Obama to stop it. By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014 [Link] Seth. The author also appears in this video - he is a former Zionist who now believes Israel needs to make peace and give Palestinians a homeland to end decades of enmity. [Link] Turns out he also is a visiting professor at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies, a college I know well. Yes mate, I found that piece from a link on facebook and read a little about Mr Siegman. People like him, who are able to see the truth despite years of thinking the opposite, give me hope where there seems to be little to be hoped for. Thanks for the link to the video. Interesting viewing. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 5.33pm

Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 5.25pm

Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 5.03pm

Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.52pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm

Salutary reading

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Aug 2014 4.40pm)

Indeed. So is this...

VIEW FROM ISRAEL
It’s All Hamas’ Fault, Right Israel?
I’m no fan of Hamas, quite the contrary. But Israel’s attempt to put all the blame on Hamas is outrageous.
GIDEON LEVY

[Link]

In the same vein:

Israel Provoked This War
It’s up to President Obama to stop it.
By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014

[Link]

Seth. The author also appears in this video - he is a former Zionist who now believes Israel needs to make peace and give Palestinians a homeland to end decades of enmity.

[Link]

Turns out he also is a visiting professor at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies, a college I know well.

Yes mate, I found that piece from a link on facebook and read a little about Mr Siegman. People like him, who are able to see the truth despite years of thinking the opposite, give me hope where there seems to be little to be hoped for.

Thanks for the link to the video. Interesting viewing.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Kermit8 Hevon 03 Aug 14 5.34pm
Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.31pm The lead piece in Today's Mail explains what the people are facing in Gaza without electricity and the virtual collapse of the hospital system. [Link] Even sane strong supporters of Israel have been pointing out that such a barbaric onslaught against a civilian population doesn't help Israel in the long run as it creates another generation of people with a grievance. [Link] I do believe this is exactly what the extreme right in the Knesset want, have wanted and will always want and make damned sure they create the atmosphere for it to be so decade after decade. It helps their fcked up cause and underpins their raison d'etre. To expand, exploit and subjugate with no quarter given. Barbaric, criminal, dehumanising fascists. Edited by Kermit8 (03 Aug 2014 5.38pm) Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 03 Aug 14 5.34pm

Quote Palacetinian at 03 Aug 2014 4.31pm

The lead piece in Today's Mail explains what the people are facing in Gaza without electricity and the virtual collapse of the hospital system.

[Link]

Even sane strong supporters of Israel have been pointing out that such a barbaric onslaught against a civilian population doesn't help Israel in the long run as it creates another generation of people with a grievance.
[Link]

I do believe this is exactly what the extreme right in the Knesset want, have wanted and will always want and make damned sure they create the atmosphere for it to be so decade after decade.

It helps their fcked up cause and underpins their raison d'etre. To expand, exploit and subjugate with no quarter given.

Barbaric, criminal, dehumanising fascists.

Edited by Kermit8 (03 Aug 2014 5.38pm)

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 03 Aug 14 6.33pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 1.56pm Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 12.34pm There are some legitimate complaints about the route of the barrier.....But despite the claims of many people before it went up....It has bought down the number of suicide bombings in Israel significantly. Those who argue against a barrier being there are arguing for increased death on the Israeli mainland. Ludicrous - of course they are not. You really spout complete b******s. Not everyone has the limited vision you appear to possess. That is the practical result of no barrier. Again, provide rational argument rather than insults. That's hard, seeing as you provided no justification whatsoever for your sweeping and absurd generalisation in the first place. What exactly am I supposed to counter? You made an unsupported allegation (again) which condemns anyone who disagrees with you as complicit in killings which is both stupid and offensive. I think you confuse facts and sensible argument with you own, prejudiced and ignorant opinions which you spout, presumably in the innocent belief that only you know the real answers. You appear not to understand that debate is not simply you mouthing your extremely narrow, prejudiced and inexperienced view of the world and expecting everyone will agree with you. You bore me senseless but, if you post more nonsense, then of course I will counter it - not to try and persuade you as I do not believe you have the capacity to listen and learn, but to provide some semblance of balance and knock down some of your more outrageous opinions. Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)
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SloveniaDave

Tirana, Albania 03 Aug 14 6.33pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 4.40pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 03 Aug 2014 1.56pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Aug 2014 12.34pm

Those who argue against a barrier being there are arguing for increased death on the Israeli mainland.

Ludicrous - of course they are not. You really spout complete b******s. Not everyone has the limited vision you appear to possess.

That is the practical result of no barrier.

Again, provide rational argument rather than insults.

That's hard, seeing as you provided no justification whatsoever for your sweeping and absurd generalisation in the first place. What exactly am I supposed to counter?

You made an unsupported allegation (again) which condemns anyone who disagrees with you as complicit in killings which is both stupid and offensive.

I think you confuse facts and sensible argument with you own, prejudiced and ignorant opinions which you spout, presumably in the innocent belief that only you know the real answers.

You appear not to understand that debate is not simply you mouthing your extremely narrow, prejudiced and inexperienced view of the world and expecting everyone will agree with you.

You bore me senseless but, if you post more nonsense, then of course I will counter it - not to try and persuade you as I do not believe you have the capacity to listen and learn, but to provide some semblance of balance and knock down some of your more outrageous opinions.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 03 Aug 14 6.39pm
Quote nickgusset at 03 Aug 2014 12.19am Quote Stirlingsays at 02 Aug 2014 11.56pm Quote nickgusset at 02 Aug 2014 11.49pm Unless you stop saying you want our destruction, we will destroy you. Even if you do this, we will still control you anyway and will probably destroy your infrastructure or take your land piecemeal as we did in the days before Hamas. So you regard events like Camp David and all those near misses as disingenuous from the Israelis?.....Even the left in Israel? They mean nothing at the moment do they? You are talking of resolutions, great, but until one of the sides stops, it's meaningless. Netanyahu must have been spoiling for a fight. Instead of waiting for an investigation, it was in, all guns blazing. The fact that it wasn't even Hamas that kidnapped the 3 teenagers seems to have passed them by. At the moment, Hamas it would seem are going down with the ship. Dying defending their homeland. True spirit of St George (Palestinian) Rather die defending their country than subjugating and giving more of it up. How many on here see dying, defending your country as heroic? Would you do the same if you were in Palestinian shoes? Of course there will be resistance to the besiegement of Gaza and Palestine as a whole. The Israelis should expect that. There's always resistance among some of the population within occupied countries. And the 'searching for the kidnapped soldier', resulted in dozens of civilian dead. As it transpires, the soldier was most likely killed by one of those indiscriminate (ahem, 'targetted') bombing strikes by Israel, as he was identified from his DNA 'bits'. Meanwhile, more Palestinian children/civilians and UN sanctuaries are blown up. I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 03 Aug 14 6.39pm

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Quote nickgusset at 03 Aug 2014 12.19am

Quote Stirlingsays at 02 Aug 2014 11.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 02 Aug 2014 11.49pm

Unless you stop saying you want our destruction, we will destroy you. Even if you do this, we will still control you anyway and will probably destroy your infrastructure or take your land piecemeal as we did in the days before Hamas.

So you regard events like Camp David and all those near misses as disingenuous from the Israelis?.....Even the left in Israel?

They mean nothing at the moment do they? You are talking of resolutions, great, but until one of the sides stops, it's meaningless.

Netanyahu must have been spoiling for a fight. Instead of waiting for an investigation, it was in, all guns blazing. The fact that it wasn't even Hamas that kidnapped the 3 teenagers seems to have passed them by.

At the moment, Hamas it would seem are going down with the ship. Dying defending their homeland. True spirit of St George (Palestinian) Rather die defending their country than subjugating and giving more of it up.
How many on here see dying, defending your country as heroic? Would you do the same if you were in Palestinian shoes?

Of course there will be resistance to the besiegement of Gaza and Palestine as a whole. The Israelis should expect that. There's always resistance among some of the population within occupied countries.

And the 'searching for the kidnapped soldier', resulted in dozens of civilian dead.

As it transpires, the soldier was most likely killed by one of those indiscriminate (ahem, 'targetted') bombing strikes by Israel, as he was identified from his DNA 'bits'.

Meanwhile, more Palestinian children/civilians and UN sanctuaries are blown up.

I disengage, I turn the page.

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