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Stirlingsays 01 Dec 21 5.11pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow But there is still no allowances made for the other contributing factors, so it's not proof of what you claim it is. Your comment re who is funding what study is exactly why I avoid those type of exchanges and avoid sending specific links - it's an endless game where people's only interest is confirming what they already think, so anything which supports that = good, anything which doesn't = pick holes in it any way you can. Did you question who funded the study you've referenced, for example? Again, to be clear I am not saying I am not guilty of this as well, just highlighting why I don't particularly engage on those type of points. You say that all you'd need is evidence, but when that is presented, you would simply refute the conclusion, or the source, or the scientist, or the media outlet presenting it. I don't think that's particularly fair there are certain statistics that are hard to manipulate over others. So for example, the number of deaths before a policy and after a policy. I accept what you are saying insomuch as correlation isn't causation.....however, it can be because something(s) will be. If there are other factors that are genuinely responsible for statistics that aren't being highlighted.....as I say, I'm open to hearing it. However, I hear what you saying as a standpoint. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Dec 21 5.11pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

But there is still no allowances made for the other contributing factors, so it's not proof of what you claim it is.

Your comment re who is funding what study is exactly why I avoid those type of exchanges and avoid sending specific links - it's an endless game where people's only interest is confirming what they already think, so anything which supports that = good, anything which doesn't = pick holes in it any way you can. Did you question who funded the study you've referenced, for example?

Again, to be clear I am not saying I am not guilty of this as well, just highlighting why I don't particularly engage on those type of points.

You say that all you'd need is evidence, but when that is presented, you would simply refute the conclusion, or the source, or the scientist, or the media outlet presenting it.

I don't think that's particularly fair there are certain statistics that are hard to manipulate over others.

So for example, the number of deaths before a policy and after a policy.

I accept what you are saying insomuch as correlation isn't causation.....however, it can be because something(s) will be.

If there are other factors that are genuinely responsible for statistics that aren't being highlighted.....as I say, I'm open to hearing it.

However, I hear what you saying as a standpoint.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 01 Dec 21 5.14pm
Originally posted by Bobby216 May i suggest the following video whicb I think offers a fairly balanced view as to what is going on [Link] A fascinating link, thank you. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Dec 21 5.14pm

Originally posted by Bobby216

May i suggest the following video whicb I think offers a fairly balanced view as to what is going on

[Link]

A fascinating link, thank you.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Grumbles 01 Dec 21 5.33pm
Originally posted by Bobby216 May i suggest the following video whicb I think offers a fairly balanced view as to what is going on [Link] Supposition overload. Everyone is allowed a view, it would just be nice if it could be factually backed up.
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Grumbles 01 Dec 21 5.33pm

Originally posted by Bobby216

May i suggest the following video whicb I think offers a fairly balanced view as to what is going on

[Link]

Supposition overload. Everyone is allowed a view, it would just be nice if it could be factually backed up.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 6.35pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow There's an amazing overlap between those who think that the mask and vaccine push is some sinister push for dictatorship, and those who vote for a Government who have increased police powers to restrict protest, interfered to a dangerous level in the free press, prorogued Parliament and been shown to have knowingly lied to the electorate more times than you can count. You couldn't make it up, could you? No doubt books and films will be made in due time, but if you submitted a script with that as the plot it would be rejected as preposterous. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 6.35pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

There's an amazing overlap between those who think that the mask and vaccine push is some sinister push for dictatorship, and those who vote for a Government who have increased police powers to restrict protest, interfered to a dangerous level in the free press, prorogued Parliament and been shown to have knowingly lied to the electorate more times than you can count.

You couldn't make it up, could you? No doubt books and films will be made in due time, but if you submitted a script with that as the plot it would be rejected as preposterous.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Grumbles 01 Dec 21 7.33pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You couldn't make it up, could you? No doubt books and films will be made in due time, but if you submitted a script with that as the plot it would be rejected as preposterous. .....But they will lap up the sequel with elite alien lizard men that kidnap young children for their blood which is being harvested by liberal elites for a so called drug, adrenochrome.
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Grumbles 01 Dec 21 7.33pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You couldn't make it up, could you? No doubt books and films will be made in due time, but if you submitted a script with that as the plot it would be rejected as preposterous.

.....But they will lap up the sequel with elite alien lizard men that kidnap young children for their blood which is being harvested by liberal elites for a so called drug, adrenochrome.

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BlueJay UK 01 Dec 21 7.45pm
An update from the infectious diseases specialist at the University of KwaZulu-Natal. -Lessells has told the committee epidemiological data suggest a sustained increase in Covid-19 incidence initially across Gauteng and now across most provinces. -“New variant detected in multiple samples from multiple locations, and PCR signal suggests already widespread across the country. -"Mutation profile and epidemiological picture suggest Omicron is able to get around some of our immune protection (to cause infection), but the protection against severe disease and death from vaccines should be less affected. -"Vaccination remains the critical tool to prevent severe disease and death, and public health and social measures remain critical to slow the spread,” he said in his presentation." Analysis from initial cases in Hong Kong suggests that antibody levels in blood samples of the vaccinated in a quarantine hotel went up 10 times within a few days of infection being found. “This is very satisfactory in terms of immunological memory,” he said. “It seems to me that if you’ve received the mRNA vaccines and you get infected by the Omicron virus, the immunological memory and recruitment of the immune response is very fast.” Lots of unknowns still, possibly more with non mRNA vaccines(?) and the unvaccinated. If it spreads very fast and is comparable to Delta, it may be relatively fine for heavily vaccinated societies and something of a disaster for others. Complete supposition on my part of course. Time will tell her it pans out.
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BlueJay

UK 01 Dec 21 7.45pm

An update from the infectious diseases specialist at the University of KwaZulu-Natal.

-Lessells has told the committee epidemiological data suggest a sustained increase in Covid-19 incidence initially across Gauteng and now across most provinces.

-“New variant detected in multiple samples from multiple locations, and PCR signal suggests already widespread across the country.

-"Mutation profile and epidemiological picture suggest Omicron is able to get around some of our immune protection (to cause infection), but the protection against severe disease and death from vaccines should be less affected.

-"Vaccination remains the critical tool to prevent severe disease and death, and public health and social measures remain critical to slow the spread,” he said in his presentation."

Analysis from initial cases in Hong Kong suggests that antibody levels in blood samples of the vaccinated in a quarantine hotel went up 10 times within a few days of infection being found.

“This is very satisfactory in terms of immunological memory,” he said. “It seems to me that if you’ve received the mRNA vaccines and you get infected by the Omicron virus, the immunological memory and recruitment of the immune response is very fast.”

Lots of unknowns still, possibly more with non mRNA vaccines(?) and the unvaccinated. If it spreads very fast and is comparable to Delta, it may be relatively fine for heavily vaccinated societies and something of a disaster for others. Complete supposition on my part of course. Time will tell her it pans out.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 01 Dec 21 7.46pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays My position has always been that you can't control nature, especially airborne viruses.....even making a tiny difference comes at ruinous cost. I said that to Maple on here sometime ago....I think that's been borne out, not that he agreed of course. I think in the fullness of time people will take that lesson from this crazy time. I don't think people realise that unless you're going to walk around in a bubble, that it's just a matter of time before you catch whatever. It is just a matter of time. Your immune system will decide what happens after that, regardless of whether you have a vaccine or treatment or whatever....it can only help your immune system identify the virus....which we should remember has been the case in the vast majority of cases. Lockdowns don't work, masks don't work.....taking precautions will delay infection...and hopefully that means the virus you catch has become weaker than your system. But you'll catch it regardless.....because you always have caught what's been going around...and that's how nature works. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2021 2.03pm) I agree with you apart from ‘ Your immune system will decide what happens after that, regardless of whether you have a vaccine or treatment or whatever....it can only help your immune system identify the virus....which we should remember has been the case in the vast majority of cases.’ The performance of vaccines in the whole of the UK proves they can an and have helped. You may be looking at it on an individual level whereby those people saying ‘’I would’ve been in hospital without the jab(s)’’ are lying, guessing or being dramatic. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 01 Dec 21 7.46pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

My position has always been that you can't control nature, especially airborne viruses.....even making a tiny difference comes at ruinous cost. I said that to Maple on here sometime ago....I think that's been borne out, not that he agreed of course.

I think in the fullness of time people will take that lesson from this crazy time.

I don't think people realise that unless you're going to walk around in a bubble, that it's just a matter of time before you catch whatever. It is just a matter of time.

Your immune system will decide what happens after that, regardless of whether you have a vaccine or treatment or whatever....it can only help your immune system identify the virus....which we should remember has been the case in the vast majority of cases.

Lockdowns don't work, masks don't work.....taking precautions will delay infection...and hopefully that means the virus you catch has become weaker than your system.

But you'll catch it regardless.....because you always have caught what's been going around...and that's how nature works.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2021 2.03pm)

I agree with you apart from ‘ Your immune system will decide what happens after that, regardless of whether you have a vaccine or treatment or whatever....it can only help your immune system identify the virus....which we should remember has been the case in the vast majority of cases.’

The performance of vaccines in the whole of the UK proves they can an and have helped. You may be looking at it on an individual level whereby those people saying ‘’I would’ve been in hospital without the jab(s)’’ are lying, guessing or being dramatic.

COYP

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 7.52pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays My position has always been that you can't control nature, especially airborne viruses.....even making a tiny difference comes at ruinous cost. I said that to Maple on here sometime ago....I think that's been borne out, not that he agreed of course. I think in the fullness of time people will take that lesson from this crazy time. I don't think people realise that unless you're going to walk around in a bubble, that it's just a matter of time before you catch whatever. It is just a matter of time. Your immune system will decide what happens after that, regardless of whether you have a vaccine or treatment or whatever....it can only help your immune system identify the virus....which we should remember has been the case in the vast majority of cases. Lockdowns don't work, masks don't work.....taking precautions will delay infection...and hopefully that means the virus you catch has become weaker than your system. But you'll catch it regardless.....because you always have caught what's been going around...and that's how nature works. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2021 2.03pm) Maybe in time we will all catch it, maybe several times with several variants. What though your analysis misses is that it is undeniable that the vaccines inhibit the development of severe disease. To the point that, although we can still catch it when vaccinated, most of us won't even notice. Hence the need to keep on testing and isolating. You also seem to ignore the importance of viral load in determining how severe an infection might be. This is where masks are important. As we all now know, it's not the number of those infected that is the critical statistic. It's the level of severe infection, and deaths that are really important. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 7.52pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think in the fullness of time people will take that lesson from this crazy time.

I don't think people realise that unless you're going to walk around in a bubble, that it's just a matter of time before you catch whatever. It is just a matter of time.

Lockdowns don't work, masks don't work.....taking precautions will delay infection...and hopefully that means the virus you catch has become weaker than your system.

But you'll catch it regardless.....because you always have caught what's been going around...and that's how nature works.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2021 2.03pm)

Maybe in time we will all catch it, maybe several times with several variants.

What though your analysis misses is that it is undeniable that the vaccines inhibit the development of severe disease. To the point that, although we can still catch it when vaccinated, most of us won't even notice. Hence the need to keep on testing and isolating.

You also seem to ignore the importance of viral load in determining how severe an infection might be. This is where masks are important.

As we all now know, it's not the number of those infected that is the critical statistic. It's the level of severe infection, and deaths that are really important.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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BlueJay UK 01 Dec 21 7.55pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I know it's delayed my shoulder operation for a bone infection....put forward for an operation in July and I still haven't got an operation date...The surgeon's a bit miffed about it. Sounds far from ideal. Is it something likely to get significantly worse in a short period of time if it drags on? If so fingers crossed that they are able to do it ASAP.
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BlueJay

UK 01 Dec 21 7.55pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I know it's delayed my shoulder operation for a bone infection....put forward for an operation in July and I still haven't got an operation date...The surgeon's a bit miffed about it.

Sounds far from ideal. Is it something likely to get significantly worse in a short period of time if it drags on? If so fingers crossed that they are able to do it ASAP.

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BlueJay UK 01 Dec 21 8.06pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman The performance of vaccines in the whole of the UK proves they can an and have helped. You may be looking at it on an individual level whereby those people saying ‘’I would’ve been in hospital without the jab(s)’’ are lying, guessing or being dramatic. Sounds like a fair assessment. And being that many still catch covid (including the elderly) afterwards but with the vast majority of the especially negative effects cushioned by the vaccine, natural infection then often ends up acting like a booster of sorts rather than a possible death sentence for some. A stepping stone of sorts.
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BlueJay

UK 01 Dec 21 8.06pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Sounds like a fair assessment. And being that many still catch covid (including the elderly) afterwards but with the vast majority of the especially negative effects cushioned by the vaccine, natural infection then often ends up acting like a booster of sorts rather than a possible death sentence for some. A stepping stone of sorts.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 8.12pm
Originally posted by eaglesdare No denying that vaccines in the past have helped in cases of smallpox etc... For me it is just a personal choice I just dont want or have ever had a vaccine. I dont have any mad conspiracy theories on it or anything like that its just a choice that i would rather let my body fight off infections on its own. Now that I have had covid I have my natural "vaccine" I would never tell someone to not be vaccinated and I would never tell someone to be. Those who refuse both vaccinations and masks because of "personal choice" (not medical reasons) are behaving really selfishly, for what they do has wider implications for the health of society as a whole. Thinking you have natural immunity is not an excuse when it is a pre-determined policy. For the moment it remains their choice, as society is being very tolerant and trying to use persuasion rather than coercion. You can see that changing, though. At the very least, you can expect society to close doors to those who fail to co-operate. No-one wants to ostracise or divide people, but responsible behaviour in a crisis is the minimum we should expect from everyone. If that means someone having to act against their wishes because the rest of society demands it, then that's the way it has to be. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 8.12pm

Originally posted by eaglesdare

No denying that vaccines in the past have helped in cases of smallpox etc... For me it is just a personal choice I just dont want or have ever had a vaccine. I dont have any mad conspiracy theories on it or anything like that its just a choice that i would rather let my body fight off infections on its own. Now that I have had covid I have my natural "vaccine"

I would never tell someone to not be vaccinated and I would never tell someone to be.

Those who refuse both vaccinations and masks because of "personal choice" (not medical reasons) are behaving really selfishly, for what they do has wider implications for the health of society as a whole. Thinking you have natural immunity is not an excuse when it is a pre-determined policy.

For the moment it remains their choice, as society is being very tolerant and trying to use persuasion rather than coercion. You can see that changing, though. At the very least, you can expect society to close doors to those who fail to co-operate.

No-one wants to ostracise or divide people, but responsible behaviour in a crisis is the minimum we should expect from everyone. If that means someone having to act against their wishes because the rest of society demands it, then that's the way it has to be.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 8.16pm
Originally posted by Bobby216 May i suggest the following video whicb I think offers a fairly balanced view as to what is going on [Link] If that's balanced, then I think your scales are in serious need of recalibration. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 01 Dec 21 8.16pm

Originally posted by Bobby216

May i suggest the following video whicb I think offers a fairly balanced view as to what is going on

[Link]

If that's balanced, then I think your scales are in serious need of recalibration.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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