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Bias against Trump
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 Penge Eagle  Beckenham 12 Jan 18 8.40pm |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
Quick question Penge - do you think pakistan spends more or less money than the US on funding proxy forces, propping up repressive client regimes and destabilising identified targets around the world? You should read up on your history of Central America over the last 40-odd years. What are the criteria for becoming a "state sponsor of terrorism"? Out of interest, did you object to Obama's UK visit due to the USA's ills of the past too?
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jan 18 8.42pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Ah, I detect a bit of anti-American sentiment here... Nice bit of strawman arguing. pakistan is known to harbour terrorists from Islamic State, Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Remember that notable guy, can't remember his name... Oh yeah, Osama Bin laden? the same terrorists that don't really like us in the UK. pakistan are a bunch of back stabbers. Sadiq Khan went to pakistan to help drum up trade, which is fine, but he puts his personal grandstanding ahead of what's best for the country by pissing off the US. Nobody said the US were saints, but in a post Brexit world, we should be keeping world leaders like Trump sweet and work with the nation with the largest economy and similar values. Penge, I actually agree with you that Sadiq Khan is doing himself no favours whatsoever. As for "state terrorism sponsorship" equating to having some (very) dangerous lowlifes living in the ungoverned wilderness where the government's army is too afraid to set foot....well I think that long term direct government agency involvement in death squads (El Salvador, Honduras et al) and full-on terrorist insurgency (Nicaragua) amounts to state sponsorship of terrorism. Do you? Feel free to correct with with evidence that the US wasn't involved in these and similar activities. For the avoidance of doubt, acts of violence against innocent civilians (i.e. terrorism) are heinous. I don't make distinctions between the perpetrators and sponsors. That makes me pro-innocent people and anti-terrorist; if states are happy to see innocents die to further their geopolitical aims, why should we turn a blind eye?
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jan 18 8.47pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Out of interest, did you object to Obama's UK visit due to the USA's ills of the past too? No. I don't object to Trump's visit either as I've said recently on this thread. Obama was too slick (not a compliment) an operator to provide much value though and was many orders of magnitude less hawkish than Trump.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 12 Jan 18 8.54pm |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
No. I don't object to Trump's visit either as I've said recently on this thread. Obama was too slick (not a compliment) an operator to provide much value though and was many orders of magnitude less hawkish than Trump. I agree and also much of your previous post...
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jan 18 8.58pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
I agree and also much of your previous post... Glad we're doing our bit to dismantle the "right wing echo chamber" ;-)
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 12 Jan 18 9.03pm |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
Glad we're doing our bit to dismantle the "right wing echo chamber" ;-) Hahaha!
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| Stirlingsays 12 Jan 18 9.05pm |
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One of the few correct things Obama did that I totally agreed with was to apologize for CIA meddling in foreign countries affairs in the past. Though only a fool thinks that any major country isn't meddling in every single country they have a major interest in. When you look at the behaviour of the US in general....the country that basically funds the UN..the aid it gives around the world...the country that defended Europe against Russia after ww2....a country with democracy and free speech....it really makes me shake my head. So those promoting false equivalences between the US and one party states..... whilst living in a nice safe democracy.....well, I regard those people as seriously misguided. I have criticisms about the US....but I'm not neutral as I'm a western man with freedoms....partly thanks to them. Some people don't really realise or don't care.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jan 18 9.20pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
One of the few correct things Obama did that I totally agreed with was apologie for CIA meddling in foreign countries affairs in the past. Though only a fool thinks that any major country isn't meddling in every single country they have a major interest in. When you look at the behaviour of the US in general....the country that basically funds the UN..the aid it gives around the world...the country that defended Europe against Russia after ww2....a country with democracy and free speech....it really makes me shake my head. So those promoting false equivalences between the US and one party states..... whilst living in a nice safe democracy.....well, I regard those people as seriously misguided. I have criticisms about the US....but I'm not neutral as I'm a western man with freedoms....partly thanks to them. Some people don't really realise or don't care. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jan 2018 9.05pm) Appreciate your measured response Stirling. The US could be so much more than it has now become. It's pretty much become the type of haughty, warmongering and even fascist (at a state level, if you use the dictionary definitions of fascist) power that it joined in two world wars against. If we were to start looking at how it (under Republican governments especially) actively pursues policies aimed at screwing over its own citizens for the further enrichment of the very, very rich, I may not get around to opening the bottle of Westvleteren 12 that's waiting for me in the kitchen. I would have something to be really cross with Trump about then! Have a good weekend. Edited by Mr_Gristle (12 Jan 2018 9.28pm)
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| chelys London 12 Jan 18 9.43pm |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
Appreciate your measured response Stirling. The US could be so much more than it has now become. It's pretty much become the type of haughty, warmongering and even fascist (at a state level, if you use the dictionary definitions of fascist) power that it joined in two world wars against. If we were to start looking at how it (under Republican governments especially) actively pursues policies aimed at screwing over its own citizens for the further enrichment of the very, very rich, I may not get around to opening the bottle of Westvleteren 12 that's waiting for me in the kitchen. I would have something to be really cross with Trump about then! Have a good weekend. Edited by Mr_Gristle (12 Jan 2018 9.28pm) The USA fascist! What makes them fascist?
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 12 Jan 18 9.43pm |
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The US meddling was good... Pablo Escobar!
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jan 18 11.31pm |
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Originally posted by chelys
The USA fascist! What makes them fascist? Fair enough Chelys - too sweeping a statement from me. However, let me list some core aspects of what the US currently is and see if you can spot any fascist parallels: National rebirth through projection of power You're right - calling the US a fascist state is OTT. However, everything I've listed just there is current and happening there now. Any country that compels all it's children to pledge allegiance to the state every weekday and has intelligence agency advisors (and money) embedded in its film industry doesn't sound like my idea of a free democracy. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| chelys London 13 Jan 18 8.52am |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
Fair enough Chelys - too sweeping a statement from me. However, let me list some core aspects of what the US currently is and see if you can spot any fascist parallels: National rebirth through projection of power You're right - calling the US a fascist state is OTT. However, everything I've listed just there is current and happening there now. Any country that compels all it's children to pledge allegiance to the state every weekday and has intelligence agency advisors (and money) embedded in its film industry doesn't sound like my idea of a free democracy. Your mileage, of course, may vary. You could more or less apply your list to say South Africa - are they fascists too? By the way, can't see anything wrong with respect for national symbols or our armed forces.
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