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Penge Eagle Beckenham 21 Jun 18 9.18pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities. The EU knows nothing about democracy – are you serious? What about all the unelected EU commissioners and officials? What about the referendums they have forced countries to re-run when the vote didn't go their way? The UK did perfectly well with rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities before the EU even existed. And I hardly think the EU are great at acting out the list above anyway.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 21 Jun 18 9.18pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities.

The EU knows nothing about democracy – are you serious? What about all the unelected EU commissioners and officials? What about the referendums they have forced countries to re-run when the vote didn't go their way?

The UK did perfectly well with rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities before the EU even existed. And I hardly think the EU are great at acting out the list above anyway.

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.TUX. 21 Jun 18 9.21pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities. The whole reason for the europpean project was that such a thing would never happen again. That'll be those who govern the bloc, but you'll never get it. Buy Litecoin.
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.TUX.

21 Jun 18 9.21pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities.

The whole reason for the europpean project was that such a thing would never happen again.

That'll be those who govern the bloc, but you'll never get it.

Buy Litecoin.

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steeleye20 Croydon 21 Jun 18 11.00pm
Originally posted by Penge Eagle The EU knows nothing about democracy – are you serious? What about all the unelected EU commissioners and officials? What about the referendums they have forced countries to re-run when the vote didn't go their way? The UK did perfectly well with rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities before the EU even existed. And I hardly think the EU are great at acting out the list above anyway. That is ridiculous the EU has not forced the UK to re-run its referendum. As the UK did perfectly well as you say then it is an ideal member.
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steeleye20

Croydon 21 Jun 18 11.00pm

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

That is ridiculous the EU has not forced the UK to re-run its referendum.

As the UK did perfectly well as you say then it is an ideal member.

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 22 Jun 18 12.08am
Originally posted by steeleye20 That is ridiculous the EU has not forced the UK to re-run its referendum. As the UK did perfectly well as you say then it is an ideal member. I didn't say the UK – but the EU and its UK traitors blatantly want a re-run. Second referendums after the EU lost the first include: Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 22 Jun 18 12.08am

Originally posted by steeleye20

That is ridiculous the EU has not forced the UK to re-run its referendum.

As the UK did perfectly well as you say then it is an ideal member.

I didn't say the UK – but the EU and its UK traitors blatantly want a re-run.

Second referendums after the EU lost the first include: Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty.

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europalace Europe 22 Jun 18 8.38am
Originally posted by Penge Eagle I didn't say the UK – but the EU and its UK traitors blatantly want a re-run. Second referendums after the EU lost the first include: Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty. Yeah and the people of those countries after given time to see what they were really voting for, rather than knee jerk based on fake media, decided to change their minds. That is true democrasy where people can change their minds when they have more information or education. The brexit vote showed that many were tricked into voting for something that they regret now the true facts are available on exactly what they would actually be voting for. Why are so many 'brexiteers' so frightened about a 2nd referendum, which after all will be nearly 3 years after the 1st one, not 3 weeks or 3 months? Surely it will only allow the people to 'speak' again as they did 2 years ago? There is no reason whatsoever to deny the citizens of the UK to review their decision now they have a view on what leaving the EU might entail, facts that they certainly never had 2 years ago. Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 8.40am)
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europalace

Europe 22 Jun 18 8.38am

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

I didn't say the UK – but the EU and its UK traitors blatantly want a re-run.

Second referendums after the EU lost the first include: Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty.

Yeah and the people of those countries after given time to see what they were really voting for, rather than knee jerk based on fake media, decided to change their minds. That is true democrasy where people can change their minds when they have more information or education. The brexit vote showed that many were tricked into voting for something that they regret now the true facts are available on exactly what they would actually be voting for.

Why are so many 'brexiteers' so frightened about a 2nd referendum, which after all will be nearly 3 years after the 1st one, not 3 weeks or 3 months? Surely it will only allow the people to 'speak' again as they did 2 years ago? There is no reason whatsoever to deny the citizens of the UK to review their decision now they have a view on what leaving the EU might entail, facts that they certainly never had 2 years ago.

Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 8.40am)

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Badger11 Beckenham 22 Jun 18 8.52am
Originally posted by europalace Yeah and the people of those countries after given time to see what they were really voting for, rather than knee jerk based on fake media, decided to change their minds. That is true democrasy where people can change their minds when they have more information or education. The brexit vote showed that many were tricked into voting for something that they regret now the true facts are available on exactly what they would actually be voting for. Why are so many 'brexiteers' so frightened about a 2nd referendum, which after all will be nearly 3 years after the 1st one, not 3 weeks or 3 months? Surely it will only allow the people to 'speak' again as they did 2 years ago? There is no reason whatsoever to deny the citizens of the UK to review their decision now they have a view on what leaving the EU might entail, facts that they certainly never had 2 years ago. Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 8.40am) I am not frightened but you don't have a mandate. 1. 2015 General Election Tory manifesto promises a referendum if elected. They were which is a mandate. 2. 2016 Referendum held Brexit wins which is a mandate. 3. 2017 General Election both Tory and Labour manifestos are pro Brexit and promise to respect the referendum results. Tories elected as largest party, Labour second largest party. That is a mandate. This was the opportunity for the Remainers who were convinced the public were lied to or didn't understand what they were voting for. The national pro EU party Lib Dems only get 7% of the vote. 4. Where is your mandate? Both Tory and Labour parties are still pro Brexit? If you want a second referendum then win a general election with a Remain party and I will not complain about holding a second referendum. Until then you do not have a mandate. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 22 Jun 18 8.52am

Originally posted by europalace

Why are so many 'brexiteers' so frightened about a 2nd referendum, which after all will be nearly 3 years after the 1st one, not 3 weeks or 3 months? Surely it will only allow the people to 'speak' again as they did 2 years ago? There is no reason whatsoever to deny the citizens of the UK to review their decision now they have a view on what leaving the EU might entail, facts that they certainly never had 2 years ago.

Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 8.40am)

I am not frightened but you don't have a mandate.

1. 2015 General Election Tory manifesto promises a referendum if elected. They were which is a mandate.

2. 2016 Referendum held Brexit wins which is a mandate.

3. 2017 General Election both Tory and Labour manifestos are pro Brexit and promise to respect the referendum results. Tories elected as largest party, Labour second largest party. That is a mandate. This was the opportunity for the Remainers who were convinced the public were lied to or didn't understand what they were voting for.

The national pro EU party Lib Dems only get 7% of the vote.

4. Where is your mandate? Both Tory and Labour parties are still pro Brexit? If you want a second referendum then win a general election with a Remain party and I will not complain about holding a second referendum. Until then you do not have a mandate.

One more point

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europalace Europe 22 Jun 18 9.26am
Originally posted by Badger11 I am not frightened but you don't have a mandate. 1. 2015 General Election Tory manifesto promises a referendum if elected. They were which is a mandate. 2. 2016 Referendum held Brexit wins which is a mandate. 3. 2017 General Election both Tory and Labour manifestos are pro Brexit and promise to respect the referendum results. Tories elected as largest party, Labour second largest party. That is a mandate. This was the opportunity for the Remainers who were convinced the public were lied to or didn't understand what they were voting for. The national pro EU party Lib Dems only get 7% of the vote. 4. Where is your mandate? Both Tory and Labour parties are still pro Brexit? If you want a second referendum then win a general election with a Remain party and I will not complain about holding a second referendum. Until then you do not have a mandate. Most people don't vote for a certain political party based on a single reason, in this case in/out of EU. Therefore they will always typically vote for one of the largest two parties, conservatives or labour. Therefore your argument fails on all accounts. You show the typical 'head in sand' attitude that I expected as a reply. The view that 'brexit' will be a 'success' no matter what, even if it's in reality a complete disaster unfortunately plagues many. I don't need any mandate as I'm not a UK citizen thankfully and not caught up in the huge mess that 50% of the population has plunged it into. However, I still have the right to comment about what I (and many, many others) can see from outside of your UK centric bubble. As an example of what nobody could have seen 2 years ago, this might not impact you personally but it will affect the UK significantly, especially the knock on effect for all of the 3rd party suppliers: [Link] Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 9.27am)
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europalace

Europe 22 Jun 18 9.26am

Originally posted by Badger11

I am not frightened but you don't have a mandate.

1. 2015 General Election Tory manifesto promises a referendum if elected. They were which is a mandate.

2. 2016 Referendum held Brexit wins which is a mandate.

The national pro EU party Lib Dems only get 7% of the vote.

Most people don't vote for a certain political party based on a single reason, in this case in/out of EU. Therefore they will always typically vote for one of the largest two parties, conservatives or labour. Therefore your argument fails on all accounts.

You show the typical 'head in sand' attitude that I expected as a reply. The view that 'brexit' will be a 'success' no matter what, even if it's in reality a complete disaster unfortunately plagues many.

I don't need any mandate as I'm not a UK citizen thankfully and not caught up in the huge mess that 50% of the population has plunged it into. However, I still have the right to comment about what I (and many, many others) can see from outside of your UK centric bubble.

As an example of what nobody could have seen 2 years ago, this might not impact you personally but it will affect the UK significantly, especially the knock on effect for all of the 3rd party suppliers:

[Link]

Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 9.27am)

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Badger11 Beckenham 22 Jun 18 9.53am
Originally posted by europalace Most people don't vote for a certain political party based on a single reason, in this case in/out of EU. Therefore they will always typically vote for one of the largest two parties, conservatives or labour. Therefore your argument fails on all accounts. You show the typical 'head in sand' attitude that I expected as a reply. The view that 'brexit' will be a 'success' no matter what, even if it's in reality a complete disaster unfortunately plagues many. I don't need any mandate as I'm not a UK citizen thankfully and not caught up in the huge mess that 50% of the population has plunged it into. However, I still have the right to comment about what I (and many, many others) can see from outside of your UK centric bubble. As an example of what nobody could have seen 2 years ago, this might not impact you personally but it will affect the UK significantly, especially the knock on effect for all of the 3rd party suppliers: [Link] Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 9.27am) I have never said that Brexit will be a success because it is an unknown. I believe we can make it a success if the politicians make the right decisions. I am disappointed that you are dismissive of our electoral process. If the people want a 2nd referendum then why are they not petitioning their parties for a change in policy or joining a party that supports Remaining. I would remind you that it was people voting for UKIP at election after election that forced the Tories in to giving us a referendum in the first place. Where is the equivalent Remain party fighting by elections, local elections etc. Additionally the MP's who are pro Remain were happy to stand on party manifestos that were pro Brexit. A handful of disgruntled MPs and the un-elected House of Lords is not what I call a democratic mandate. Yes opinions polls show that a percentage of the population want to remain those same polls also told us that Theresa May would win by a landslide. The only opinion poll that counts is a general election. Our system of government is not perfect but it is the one we have so I don't agree my arguments have failed. Until we live in a dictatorship you will have to show me your democratic mandate for a 2nd Referendum. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 22 Jun 18 9.53am

Originally posted by europalace

[Link]

Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 9.27am)

I have never said that Brexit will be a success because it is an unknown. I believe we can make it a success if the politicians make the right decisions.

I am disappointed that you are dismissive of our electoral process. If the people want a 2nd referendum then why are they not petitioning their parties for a change in policy or joining a party that supports Remaining. I would remind you that it was people voting for UKIP at election after election that forced the Tories in to giving us a referendum in the first place. Where is the equivalent Remain party fighting by elections, local elections etc. Additionally the MP's who are pro Remain were happy to stand on party manifestos that were pro Brexit.

A handful of disgruntled MPs and the un-elected House of Lords is not what I call a democratic mandate. Yes opinions polls show that a percentage of the population want to remain those same polls also told us that Theresa May would win by a landslide. The only opinion poll that counts is a general election.

Our system of government is not perfect but it is the one we have so I don't agree my arguments have failed.
Until we live in a dictatorship you will have to show me your democratic mandate for a 2nd Referendum.

One more point

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 22 Jun 18 10.25am
Originally posted by Penge Eagle The EU knows nothing about democracy – are you serious? What about all the unelected EU commissioners and officials? What about the referendums they have forced countries to re-run when the vote didn't go their way? The UK did perfectly well with rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities before the EU even existed. And I hardly think the EU are great at acting out the list above anyway. What is your opinion on senior civil servants out of interest? Do you realise that the real direction of the EU legislation comes from the Council rather than the Commission?
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 22 Jun 18 10.25am

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Originally posted by Penge Eagle

What is your opinion on senior civil servants out of interest?

Do you realise that the real direction of the EU legislation comes from the Council rather than the Commission?

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steeleye20 Croydon 22 Jun 18 11.48am
Far from ”project fear”, this is a dawning reality. In this case Airbus, what about everyone else, perhaps they do not have the need to know or the government does not know either. For Mrs May, like so many other disastrous PMs before, is determined to leave her mark on history this time it is brexit, but from Suez through to Iraq the window frosts over as soon as they take office.
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steeleye20

Croydon 22 Jun 18 11.48am

Far from ”project fear”, this is a dawning reality.

In this case Airbus, what about everyone else, perhaps they do not have the need to know or the government does not know either.

For Mrs May, like so many other disastrous PMs before, is determined to leave her mark on history this time it is brexit, but from Suez through to Iraq the window frosts over as soon as they take office.

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 22 Jun 18 12.37pm
Originally posted by europalace Yeah and the people of those countries after given time to see what they were really voting for, rather than knee jerk based on fake media, decided to change their minds. That is true democrasy where people can change their minds when they have more information or education. The brexit vote showed that many were tricked into voting for something that they regret now the true facts are available on exactly what they would actually be voting for. Why are so many 'brexiteers' so frightened about a 2nd referendum, which after all will be nearly 3 years after the 1st one, not 3 weeks or 3 months? Surely it will only allow the people to 'speak' again as they did 2 years ago? There is no reason whatsoever to deny the citizens of the UK to review their decision now they have a view on what leaving the EU might entail, facts that they certainly never had 2 years ago. Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 8.40am) Haha! It's only when the vote doesn't go the EU's way when a second referendum is called. Never the other way round is it? Do you think the recent Irish abortion referendum should be run again? There's no chance of it happening because the elitists got their way. Erm... Project fear actually "tricked" many people into voting for remain. Polling suggests that people haven't really changed their minds much but a lot of my remain friends just want us to get on with it and leave now. I don't think there's much appetite for the campaigns to run again. Shame Theresa May is making such a balls of it. Edited by Penge Eagle (22 Jun 2018 12.47pm)
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 22 Jun 18 12.37pm

Originally posted by europalace

Edited by europalace (22 Jun 2018 8.40am)

Haha! It's only when the vote doesn't go the EU's way when a second referendum is called. Never the other way round is it?

Do you think the recent Irish abortion referendum should be run again? There's no chance of it happening because the elitists got their way.

Erm... Project fear actually "tricked" many people into voting for remain.

Polling suggests that people haven't really changed their minds much but a lot of my remain friends just want us to get on with it and leave now. I don't think there's much appetite for the campaigns to run again. Shame Theresa May is making such a balls of it.

Edited by Penge Eagle (22 Jun 2018 12.47pm)

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 22 Jun 18 12.45pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle What is your opinion on senior civil servants out of interest? Do you realise that the real direction of the EU legislation comes from the Council rather than the Commission? I believe in a small government and want it to stay out of my life as much as possible, so the fewer the civil servants the better. I certainly don't want even more bureaucrats with the EU's lot thrown in. We have seen the UK's civil servants follow a pro-EU line which is terrible.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 22 Jun 18 12.45pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

What is your opinion on senior civil servants out of interest?

Do you realise that the real direction of the EU legislation comes from the Council rather than the Commission?

I believe in a small government and want it to stay out of my life as much as possible, so the fewer the civil servants the better. I certainly don't want even more bureaucrats with the EU's lot thrown in. We have seen the UK's civil servants follow a pro-EU line which is terrible.

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