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europalace Europe 05 Jun 18 8.24pm
"Brexit: Labour amendment seeks 'full access' to EU market" [Link]
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europalace

Europe 05 Jun 18 8.24pm

"Brexit: Labour amendment seeks 'full access' to EU market"

[Link]

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Matov 06 Jun 18 7.12am
Originally posted by europalace "Brexit: Labour amendment seeks 'full access' to EU market" [Link] Its more smoke and mirrors. Labour can state what they want but they know it is electoral suicide for them because it means that they would need to retain full movement and that loses them the north. No north, no chance of forming a Government. Labour have to placate their largely Remain voting membership whilst stressing to their Leave voting electorate, in key seats up in the North, that they intend to fully go through with Brexit. This is all part of that. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

06 Jun 18 7.12am

Originally posted by europalace

"Brexit: Labour amendment seeks 'full access' to EU market"

[Link]

Its more smoke and mirrors. Labour can state what they want but they know it is electoral suicide for them because it means that they would need to retain full movement and that loses them the north. No north, no chance of forming a Government.

Labour have to placate their largely Remain voting membership whilst stressing to their Leave voting electorate, in key seats up in the North, that they intend to fully go through with Brexit.

This is all part of that.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 06 Jun 18 8.18am
Originally posted by Matov Its more smoke and mirrors. Labour can state what they want but they know it is electoral suicide for them because it means that they would need to retain full movement and that loses them the north. No north, no chance of forming a Government. Labour have to placate their largely Remain voting membership whilst stressing to their Leave voting electorate, in key seats up in the North, that they intend to fully go through with Brexit. This is all part of that. Recent study suggests this received wisdom may not be true. May such northern voters would not vote tory. Edited by CambridgeEagle (06 Jun 2018 8.19am)
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 06 Jun 18 8.18am

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Originally posted by Matov

Labour have to placate their largely Remain voting membership whilst stressing to their Leave voting electorate, in key seats up in the North, that they intend to fully go through with Brexit.

This is all part of that.

Recent study suggests this received wisdom may not be true. May such northern voters would not vote tory.

Edited by CambridgeEagle (06 Jun 2018 8.19am)

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Matov 06 Jun 18 8.40am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Recent study suggests this received wisdom may not be true. May such northern voters would not vote tory. Edited by CambridgeEagle (06 Jun 2018 8.19am) Brilliant. I for one would love a new election with Rees-Mogg leading a Tory party that is committed to a full on Brexit and Corbyn leading a Labour Party that is committed to us staying in the single market and accepting the continuation of freedom of movement. Even maybe pledging a second referendum. Dream scenario. Not going to happen though. And especially since the local elections and what happened to Labour in the Midlands. Labour have to say one thing to their electorate whilst holding their hands behind their back with their fingers crossed for their membership. A tricky act to pull off but when push comes to shove, Corbyn is full on anti-EU. Far more so than May. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

06 Jun 18 8.40am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Recent study suggests this received wisdom may not be true. May such northern voters would not vote tory.

Edited by CambridgeEagle (06 Jun 2018 8.19am)

Brilliant. I for one would love a new election with Rees-Mogg leading a Tory party that is committed to a full on Brexit and Corbyn leading a Labour Party that is committed to us staying in the single market and accepting the continuation of freedom of movement. Even maybe pledging a second referendum.

Dream scenario.

Not going to happen though. And especially since the local elections and what happened to Labour in the Midlands.

Labour have to say one thing to their electorate whilst holding their hands behind their back with their fingers crossed for their membership. A tricky act to pull off but when push comes to shove, Corbyn is full on anti-EU. Far more so than May.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 06 Jun 18 9.08am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Recent study suggests this received wisdom may not be true. May such northern voters would not vote tory. Edited by CambridgeEagle (06 Jun 2018 8.19am) If Labour went pro remain, it's likely that a percent would likely not vote Labour or not vote. Voting Tory is questionable....however, in general, people don't like being lied to. 'Received wisdom' said that remain would win. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2018 9.10am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Jun 18 9.08am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Recent study suggests this received wisdom may not be true. May such northern voters would not vote tory.

Edited by CambridgeEagle (06 Jun 2018 8.19am)

If Labour went pro remain, it's likely that a percent would likely not vote Labour or not vote. Voting Tory is questionable....however, in general, people don't like being lied to.

'Received wisdom' said that remain would win.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2018 9.10am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 06 Jun 18 9.17am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays If Labour went pro remain, it's likely that a percent would likely not vote Labour or not vote. Voting Tory is questionable....however, in general, people don't like being lied to. 'Received wisdom' said that remain would win. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2018 9.10am) Yes all good points. I just think that it's dangerous to assume either way! Would backing remain be worse electorally than their current strategy, which doesn't seem to be polling particularly well? I found the study interesting as it was pointing out the large majorities for Labour in many Leave voting areas were perhaps not particularly in danger even if Labour changed tack on the EU. But it's all crystal ball gazing to an extent! Don't forget there are marginals where Tories sit which backed remain...
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 06 Jun 18 9.17am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

If Labour went pro remain, it's likely that a percent would likely not vote Labour or not vote. Voting Tory is questionable....however, in general, people don't like being lied to.

'Received wisdom' said that remain would win.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2018 9.10am)

Yes all good points. I just think that it's dangerous to assume either way! Would backing remain be worse electorally than their current strategy, which doesn't seem to be polling particularly well? I found the study interesting as it was pointing out the large majorities for Labour in many Leave voting areas were perhaps not particularly in danger even if Labour changed tack on the EU. But it's all crystal ball gazing to an extent! Don't forget there are marginals where Tories sit which backed remain...

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Matov 06 Jun 18 10.17am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Yes all good points. I just think that it's dangerous to assume either way! Would backing remain be worse electorally than their current strategy, which doesn't seem to be polling particularly well? I found the study interesting as it was pointing out the large majorities for Labour in many Leave voting areas were perhaps not particularly in danger even if Labour changed tack on the EU. But it's all crystal ball gazing to an extent! Don't forget there are marginals where Tories sit which backed remain... The issue for me is a potential snap election in October and fought specifically on the Brexit issue because it would be triggered by May stepping down for a variety of reasons (interesting claims about David Davis being at serious odds with Downing street officials). With freedom of movement at the very heart of the entire issue. I suspect that most voters are turned off by technicalities about border issues in Ireland or worries about trade-marks and so on. They either don't care or have nothing invested in the outcomes. But the ability of 400 million people to decide whether they want to come and go to the UK, that is a issue that people can understand. And if Labour want to be taken seriously in their claims about wanting full access to the single market, then accepting freedom of movement, with all that entails, lay at the crux of it. At the moment they are essentially getting away with fudging the issue but in the full glare of a GE campaign, and one without that moron May at the heart of it, would force them to be far more transparent. Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 10.20am) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

06 Jun 18 10.17am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

The issue for me is a potential snap election in October and fought specifically on the Brexit issue because it would be triggered by May stepping down for a variety of reasons (interesting claims about David Davis being at serious odds with Downing street officials).

With freedom of movement at the very heart of the entire issue. I suspect that most voters are turned off by technicalities about border issues in Ireland or worries about trade-marks and so on. They either don't care or have nothing invested in the outcomes.

But the ability of 400 million people to decide whether they want to come and go to the UK, that is a issue that people can understand.

And if Labour want to be taken seriously in their claims about wanting full access to the single market, then accepting freedom of movement, with all that entails, lay at the crux of it.

At the moment they are essentially getting away with fudging the issue but in the full glare of a GE campaign, and one without that moron May at the heart of it, would force them to be far more transparent.

Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 10.20am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Matov 06 Jun 18 10.19am
Doh! Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 10.19am) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

06 Jun 18 10.19am

Doh!

Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 10.19am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 06 Jun 18 10.36am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Yes all good points. I just think that it's dangerous to assume either way! Would backing remain be worse electorally than their current strategy, which doesn't seem to be polling particularly well? I found the study interesting as it was pointing out the large majorities for Labour in many Leave voting areas were perhaps not particularly in danger even if Labour changed tack on the EU. But it's all crystal ball gazing to an extent! Don't forget there are marginals where Tories sit which backed remain... You raise some interesting points. Outside of any bias for an outcome it will be fascinating to see how this all pans out. In fact both the next elections for the US and the Uk are far more interesting than was the case in previous years. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Jun 18 10.36am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You raise some interesting points. Outside of any bias for an outcome it will be fascinating to see how this all pans out.

In fact both the next elections for the US and the Uk are far more interesting than was the case in previous years.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Matov 06 Jun 18 11.09am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays In fact both the next elections for the US and the Uk are far more interesting than was the case in previous years. Absolutely. And in light of the tragedy that political polling has become, outcomes are all up in the air. Being a bit of a sad political geek, the US elections in this November are well worth taking a look at. 'Received Wisdom' (LOL-I share your contempt) is that the Democrats are going to sweep the board but that no longer seems to be the case. But my own interest is in a possible GE in October. I am convinced not only that it will happen but that it needs to. The country needs new leadership. May is a busted flush and with Brexit now looming, the nation needs somebody at the top with a clear vision. Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 11.10am) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

06 Jun 18 11.09am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

In fact both the next elections for the US and the Uk are far more interesting than was the case in previous years.

Absolutely. And in light of the tragedy that political polling has become, outcomes are all up in the air.

Being a bit of a sad political geek, the US elections in this November are well worth taking a look at. 'Received Wisdom' (LOL-I share your contempt) is that the Democrats are going to sweep the board but that no longer seems to be the case.

But my own interest is in a possible GE in October. I am convinced not only that it will happen but that it needs to. The country needs new leadership. May is a busted flush and with Brexit now looming, the nation needs somebody at the top with a clear vision.

Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 11.10am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 06 Jun 18 11.38am
Originally posted by Matov Absolutely. And in light of the tragedy that political polling has become, outcomes are all up in the air. Being a bit of a sad political geek, the US elections in this November are well worth taking a look at. 'Received Wisdom' (LOL-I share your contempt) is that the Democrats are going to sweep the board but that no longer seems to be the case. But my own interest is in a possible GE in October. I am convinced not only that it will happen but that it needs to. The country needs new leadership. May is a busted flush and with Brexit now looming, the nation needs somebody at the top with a clear vision. Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 11.10am) Yep, like you I'd have Mogg.....Williamson at defence seems interesting....and of course there's Johnson, who at least would be good for some chuckles. Still, the Tories are currently engaged in this weird exercise of copying progressives on social policy while still being economically conservative......Madness for their base. The only Tory who could get the 'don't knows' to vote is Johnson and he seems as unpopular within the Tory party as he is within Labour......Amusing really.....I mean it's not as though we have any control over it. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Jun 18 11.38am

Originally posted by Matov

Absolutely. And in light of the tragedy that political polling has become, outcomes are all up in the air.

Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 11.10am)

Yep, like you I'd have Mogg.....Williamson at defence seems interesting....and of course there's Johnson, who at least would be good for some chuckles.

Still, the Tories are currently engaged in this weird exercise of copying progressives on social policy while still being economically conservative......Madness for their base.

The only Tory who could get the 'don't knows' to vote is Johnson and he seems as unpopular within the Tory party as he is within Labour......Amusing really.....I mean it's not as though we have any control over it.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 06 Jun 18 11.42am
Originally posted by Matov Absolutely. And in light of the tragedy that political polling has become, outcomes are all up in the air. Being a bit of a sad political geek, the US elections in this November are well worth taking a look at. 'Received Wisdom' (LOL-I share your contempt) is that the Democrats are going to sweep the board but that no longer seems to be the case. But my own interest is in a possible GE in October. I am convinced not only that it will happen but that it needs to. The country needs new leadership. May is a busted flush and with Brexit now looming, the nation needs somebody at the top with a clear vision. Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 11.10am) What do you reckon the timeline will be for GE given summer recess and party conference season? EU summit looks terrible for UK - May finally axed as result - Tory leadership election (bloodbath?) sorted by September - call GE for mid-October - Conferences and Campaigning - Election (perhaps?)
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 06 Jun 18 11.42am

Originally posted by Matov

Absolutely. And in light of the tragedy that political polling has become, outcomes are all up in the air.

Edited by Matov (06 Jun 2018 11.10am)

What do you reckon the timeline will be for GE given summer recess and party conference season?

EU summit looks terrible for UK - May finally axed as result - Tory leadership election (bloodbath?) sorted by September - call GE for mid-October - Conferences and Campaigning - Election (perhaps?)

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