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Margaret Thatcher

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SloveniaDave Flag Tirana, Albania 14 Apr 13 5.50pm Send a Private Message to SloveniaDave Add SloveniaDave as a friend

Quote JohnyBoy at 14 Apr 2013 4.45pm

Well said Jamiemartin
I have to say, it astounds me the level of ignorance that I have been reading about this.
As Jamiemartin said we were not actually at war with Argentina over the Falklands, neither country declared war as this brings with it a number of international obligations, Thatcher merely said that she was sending a task force south to reclaim the islands 'by force if necessary.' However this, as she knew full well, also obliged her to adhere to certain rules i.e. international law, maritime law and the Geneva convention - all updated after WW2 to protect conflicts from spreading, to protect civilians and prisoners - believe me we should all believe that governments adhere by these rules. One of those updated requirements was to set up a 'sphere of conflict' which in the case of the Falklands was a 200 mile exclusion zone. (in Iraq it was a no fly zone around certain defined parallels).
The Belgrano was sunk 36 miles outside the exclusion zone by a nuclear submarine on direct orders from the UK Government, although its precise co-ordinates had been disclosed
This was reported to MPs 3 years later by Clive Ponting who was subsequently charged with a breach of the Official secrets act.
That the sinking took place 14 hours after a peace deal was announced by Peru (although Thatcher said she didn't receive it hmmmm...) is largely irrelevant as it was a breach of international law and the conventions of warfare in itself.
Technically she cant be charged with a war crime because Britain were not technically at war but she can be charged with an atrocity. The likelihood of this is however negligible given that the UK has a permanent veto on the security council that governs the UN tribunal.
For the record I was in favour of the Falklands being reclaimed (and indeed the Iraq war with certain amendments) but I cannot agree with a war crime or deliberate atrocity - and I am baffled that there are some whipped up war mongers on here who probably saw the headline 'GOTCHA' who seem to be claiming they are more patriotic because they do.
The likes of Milosevic have also used 'well we were at war with them' as their defence and they too were rightfully found guilty of war crimes and atrocities.

Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Apr 2013 10.58pm

Quote chris123 at 13 Apr 2013 9.37pm

Quote newickeagle at 13 Apr 2013 9.33pm

Chris, how many people went to their death in the South Atlantic and particularly on the Belgrano? She stuck herself in a pseudo tank to celebrate and they were in their early years. 87 is a good innings, she didn't allow that to her victims. How does it feel to be the Mother of a 1000 dead?


We were at war.

No we were in a conflict. The UK specifically didn't declare war, and the Belgrano was sunk outside the exclusion zone, on executive order of the prime minister - It was of course the right decision.

But she did celebrate the victory, which is the celebration of others deaths, most of whom were young kids conscripted by a facist regime that murdered and tortured its own people. Those kids, what choice did they have. It might have had to be done, it might even have been of benefit to argentina (as the Junta collapsed soon after).

Nothing really to celebrate there. 649 Argentinans died along with 3 Falkland Islanders and 255 British Service men. Ironically more service men from the Falklands would die by their own hand in the coming decade after the war, than were killed by enemy fire - largely down to the Conservative parties dismantling of the British Mental Health system.



Sorry, but if there is any ignorance here, it is yours, although I would suggest it is willful ignorance since you seem to have a modicum of knowledge of the subject.

The only error was in some of the incomeplete and sometimes misleading responses by MOD and the Government at the time and subsequently.

All serious commentators, including neutral ones and even those in Argentina, accept that the sinking of the Belgano was a perfectly resonable act, under the circumstances.

People seeking to portray it as a war crime or similar are simply mischief-making.

Your comment about having to declare war in order to be tried for war crimes is also factually inaccurate.

 


Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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JohnyBoy Flag 14 Apr 13 6.04pm Send a Private Message to JohnyBoy Add JohnyBoy as a friend

Quote SloveniaDave at 14 Apr 2013 5.50pm

Quote JohnyBoy at 14 Apr 2013 4.45pm

Well said Jamiemartin
I have to say, it astounds me the level of ignorance that I have been reading about this.
As Jamiemartin said we were not actually at war with Argentina over the Falklands, neither country declared war as this brings with it a number of international obligations, Thatcher merely said that she was sending a task force south to reclaim the islands 'by force if necessary.' However this, as she knew full well, also obliged her to adhere to certain rules i.e. international law, maritime law and the Geneva convention - all updated after WW2 to protect conflicts from spreading, to protect civilians and prisoners - believe me we should all believe that governments adhere by these rules. One of those updated requirements was to set up a 'sphere of conflict' which in the case of the Falklands was a 200 mile exclusion zone. (in Iraq it was a no fly zone around certain defined parallels).
The Belgrano was sunk 36 miles outside the exclusion zone by a nuclear submarine on direct orders from the UK Government, although its precise co-ordinates had been disclosed
This was reported to MPs 3 years later by Clive Ponting who was subsequently charged with a breach of the Official secrets act.
That the sinking took place 14 hours after a peace deal was announced by Peru (although Thatcher said she didn't receive it hmmmm...) is largely irrelevant as it was a breach of international law and the conventions of warfare in itself.
Technically she cant be charged with a war crime because Britain were not technically at war but she can be charged with an atrocity. The likelihood of this is however negligible given that the UK has a permanent veto on the security council that governs the UN tribunal.
For the record I was in favour of the Falklands being reclaimed (and indeed the Iraq war with certain amendments) but I cannot agree with a war crime or deliberate atrocity - and I am baffled that there are some whipped up war mongers on here who probably saw the headline 'GOTCHA' who seem to be claiming they are more patriotic because they do.
The likes of Milosevic have also used 'well we were at war with them' as their defence and they too were rightfully found guilty of war crimes and atrocities.

Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Apr 2013 10.58pm

Quote chris123 at 13 Apr 2013 9.37pm

Quote newickeagle at 13 Apr 2013 9.33pm

Chris, how many people went to their death in the South Atlantic and particularly on the Belgrano? She stuck herself in a pseudo tank to celebrate and they were in their early years. 87 is a good innings, she didn't allow that to her victims. How does it feel to be the Mother of a 1000 dead?


We were at war.

No we were in a conflict. The UK specifically didn't declare war, and the Belgrano was sunk outside the exclusion zone, on executive order of the prime minister - It was of course the right decision.

But she did celebrate the victory, which is the celebration of others deaths, most of whom were young kids conscripted by a facist regime that murdered and tortured its own people. Those kids, what choice did they have. It might have had to be done, it might even have been of benefit to argentina (as the Junta collapsed soon after).

Nothing really to celebrate there. 649 Argentinans died along with 3 Falkland Islanders and 255 British Service men. Ironically more service men from the Falklands would die by their own hand in the coming decade after the war, than were killed by enemy fire - largely down to the Conservative parties dismantling of the British Mental Health system.



Sorry, but if there is any ignorance here, it is yours, although I would suggest it is willful ignorance since you seem to have a modicum of knowledge of the subject.

The only error was in some of the incomeplete and sometimes misleading responses by MOD and the Government at the time and subsequently.

All serious commentators, including neutral ones and even those in Argentina, accept that the sinking of the Belgano was a perfectly resonable act, under the circumstances.

People seeking to portray it as a war crime or similar are simply mischief-making.

Your comment about having to declare war in order to be tried for war crimes is also factually inaccurate.


I think you will find that I am not factually incorrect and that legally a war crime or atrocity are treated the same anyway.
And all commentators do not think it was a reasonable act at all, I really do not know where you get this from, with such wide international condemnation of the Belgrano incident. De Kirchner has been lobbying for recognition of it as an atrocity and is still seeking compensation to the affected families which I agree with as long as there is reciprocal recognition that General Galtieri's initial attack was an act of war with similar compensation paid to the islanders and British troops that were injured or killed. I do not however agree that the Falklands be given back to Argentina as the Atlantic charter on 'self determination' means that if a majority of people vote to stay British then they should.

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 14 Apr 13 6.19pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote dannyh at 14 Apr 2013 5.31pm

6500 a month, a feckin month !!!!!

That is taking the right piss


You can be Foreign or Home Secretary in my revolutionary cabinet, mr h.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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SloveniaDave Flag Tirana, Albania 14 Apr 13 6.19pm Send a Private Message to SloveniaDave Add SloveniaDave as a friend

Quote JohnyBoy at 14 Apr 2013 6.04pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 14 Apr 2013 5.50pm

Quote JohnyBoy at 14 Apr 2013 4.45pm

Well said Jamiemartin
I have to say, it astounds me the level of ignorance that I have been reading about this.
As Jamiemartin said we were not actually at war with Argentina over the Falklands, neither country declared war as this brings with it a number of international obligations, Thatcher merely said that she was sending a task force south to reclaim the islands 'by force if necessary.' However this, as she knew full well, also obliged her to adhere to certain rules i.e. international law, maritime law and the Geneva convention - all updated after WW2 to protect conflicts from spreading, to protect civilians and prisoners - believe me we should all believe that governments adhere by these rules. One of those updated requirements was to set up a 'sphere of conflict' which in the case of the Falklands was a 200 mile exclusion zone. (in Iraq it was a no fly zone around certain defined parallels).
The Belgrano was sunk 36 miles outside the exclusion zone by a nuclear submarine on direct orders from the UK Government, although its precise co-ordinates had been disclosed
This was reported to MPs 3 years later by Clive Ponting who was subsequently charged with a breach of the Official secrets act.
That the sinking took place 14 hours after a peace deal was announced by Peru (although Thatcher said she didn't receive it hmmmm...) is largely irrelevant as it was a breach of international law and the conventions of warfare in itself.
Technically she cant be charged with a war crime because Britain were not technically at war but she can be charged with an atrocity. The likelihood of this is however negligible given that the UK has a permanent veto on the security council that governs the UN tribunal.
For the record I was in favour of the Falklands being reclaimed (and indeed the Iraq war with certain amendments) but I cannot agree with a war crime or deliberate atrocity - and I am baffled that there are some whipped up war mongers on here who probably saw the headline 'GOTCHA' who seem to be claiming they are more patriotic because they do.
The likes of Milosevic have also used 'well we were at war with them' as their defence and they too were rightfully found guilty of war crimes and atrocities.

Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Apr 2013 10.58pm

Quote chris123 at 13 Apr 2013 9.37pm

Quote newickeagle at 13 Apr 2013 9.33pm

Chris, how many people went to their death in the South Atlantic and particularly on the Belgrano? She stuck herself in a pseudo tank to celebrate and they were in their early years. 87 is a good innings, she didn't allow that to her victims. How does it feel to be the Mother of a 1000 dead?


We were at war.

No we were in a conflict. The UK specifically didn't declare war, and the Belgrano was sunk outside the exclusion zone, on executive order of the prime minister - It was of course the right decision.

But she did celebrate the victory, which is the celebration of others deaths, most of whom were young kids conscripted by a facist regime that murdered and tortured its own people. Those kids, what choice did they have. It might have had to be done, it might even have been of benefit to argentina (as the Junta collapsed soon after).

Nothing really to celebrate there. 649 Argentinans died along with 3 Falkland Islanders and 255 British Service men. Ironically more service men from the Falklands would die by their own hand in the coming decade after the war, than were killed by enemy fire - largely down to the Conservative parties dismantling of the British Mental Health system.



Sorry, but if there is any ignorance here, it is yours, although I would suggest it is willful ignorance since you seem to have a modicum of knowledge of the subject.

The only error was in some of the incomeplete and sometimes misleading responses by MOD and the Government at the time and subsequently.

All serious commentators, including neutral ones and even those in Argentina, accept that the sinking of the Belgano was a perfectly resonable act, under the circumstances.

People seeking to portray it as a war crime or similar are simply mischief-making.

Your comment about having to declare war in order to be tried for war crimes is also factually inaccurate.


I think you will find that I am not factually incorrect and that legally a war crime or atrocity are treated the same anyway.
And all commentators do not think it was a reasonable act at all, I really do not know where you get this from, with such wide international condemnation of the Belgrano incident. De Kirchner has been lobbying for recognition of it as an atrocity and is still seeking compensation to the affected families which I agree with as long as there is reciprocal recognition that General Galtieri's initial attack was an act of war with similar compensation paid to the islanders and British troops that were injured or killed. I do not however agree that the Falklands be given back to Argentina as the Atlantic charter on 'self determination' means that if a majority of people vote to stay British then they should.


There was considerable debate and criticism in the immediate aftermath of the sinking but most of that can probably be attributed to the way in which it was handled.

Howeber, since we have had all the available facts - assuming there are no additional significant facts still to come out - there is very little, if any, serious debate about the legitimacy of the British action.

Our terms of engagement allowed us to attack any argentinian vessel, wherever they were, if they posed a potential threat. The exclusion zone was only one element of those terms of engagement and was specifically not a self-imposed limit on any action. Whether the Belgrano was inside or outside of the zone and the direction it was sailing were not material to any decision to attack it.

The Argentinian President of course would like to portray things differently, but she is a tiny minority and is clearly acting to bolster her own domestic standing, nothing more.

 


Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 14 Apr 13 6.22pm

Quote dannyh at 14 Apr 2013 5.31pm

6500 a month, a feckin month !!!!!

That is taking the right piss


No it is not, well according to Penge. He says there are no unscrupulous landlords out for all they can get and its just market forces at work!

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 14 Apr 13 6.26pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 14 Apr 2013 6.22pm

Quote dannyh at 14 Apr 2013 5.31pm

6500 a month, a feckin month !!!!!

That is taking the right piss


No it is not, well according to Penge. He says there are no unscrupulous landlords out for all they can get and its just market forces at work!


He'll come out with some twisted logic rant that the poor landlord has probably taken out a £500k mortgage so needs to charge that to make 97p profit per annum.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 14 Apr 13 6.31pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

The chart show is on Radio 1 at the moment, on to number 6, still no sign of Ding Dong the Witch is Dead...

Edited by serial thriller (14 Apr 2013 6.31pm)

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 14 Apr 13 6.52pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Number 2...and not played. Free market eh?

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 14 Apr 13 6.54pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

And the song that's number 1 is absolute w@nk. That's the real travesty.

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Stirlingsays Flag 14 Apr 13 7.15pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote serial thriller at 14 Apr 2013 6.52pm

Number 2...and not played. Free market eh?


Well, a lot of free publicity from the Beeb.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Apr 2013 8.05pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 14 Apr 13 9.08pm

Just for Penge and Chris...

164989_563150000391584_994867983_n.png Attachment: 164989_563150000391584_994867983_n.png (664.22Kb)

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 14 Apr 13 9.18pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 14 Apr 2013 9.08pm

Just for Penge and Chris...


There is no point sharing the truth nick with the terminally delusional.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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