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The White Horse 26 May 14 12.56pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.46pm Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.41pm Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.07pm Interesting that you feel that saying that some racial groups are generally richer is morally neutral. I wouldn't really see it like that myself. Sure, there isn't the same outrage connected to attributing certain attributes.....But that's an emotional response and surely that's not the gauge as too the validity of the thought process. A sort of, it's ok if what you say is warm and positive or neutral but somehow it's invalid if people don't like it......I don't think that is intellectually good enough. Generalising about group attributes is just ill advised and if you are going to do it and give it validity......Then the gloves come off for everyone. I disagree. The problem with generalisations/prejudice, as I see it, is that by treating everyone as if the stereotype applies to them, you make mistakes. If you don't give your black mate sun cream because you assume he wouldn't want/need any and he gets skin cancer, the stereotype has created an externality. But if Boots in Croydon lower how much they order every month to prevent a surplus, they're not only not causing any problems (since supply still meets demand) and they're actually saving money. In this case, Ken Livingstone is highlighting the broadly improved position of jews financially, but is that really likely to cause any problems? He's not suggesting they be taxed more or anything, he's just trying to establish that financial status is what has the biggest effect upon voting intention rather than race. If you can explain why this claim might harm jewish people either individually or as a collective, I might be happy to say it's problematic, but i can't see it myself. It's a very 'politician' like response. You don't deal with the points I raise in my post other than saying you disagree and making a disconnected analogy....Then you instead ask me a question. I give up Horsey....You can have this one. "Wear them down until they give in" has always been my philosophy. Stereotypes are like lies. Only wrong in particular circumstances. "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

26 May 14 12.56pm

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Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.46pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.41pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.07pm

Interesting that you feel that saying that some racial groups are generally richer is morally neutral. I wouldn't really see it like that myself.

Sure, there isn't the same outrage connected to attributing certain attributes.....But that's an emotional response and surely that's not the gauge as too the validity of the thought process.

A sort of, it's ok if what you say is warm and positive or neutral but somehow it's invalid if people don't like it......I don't think that is intellectually good enough.

Generalising about group attributes is just ill advised and if you are going to do it and give it validity......Then the gloves come off for everyone.

I disagree. The problem with generalisations/prejudice, as I see it, is that by treating everyone as if the stereotype applies to them, you make mistakes. If you don't give your black mate sun cream because you assume he wouldn't want/need any and he gets skin cancer, the stereotype has created an externality. But if Boots in Croydon lower how much they order every month to prevent a surplus, they're not only not causing any problems (since supply still meets demand) and they're actually saving money.

In this case, Ken Livingstone is highlighting the broadly improved position of jews financially, but is that really likely to cause any problems? He's not suggesting they be taxed more or anything, he's just trying to establish that financial status is what has the biggest effect upon voting intention rather than race. If you can explain why this claim might harm jewish people either individually or as a collective, I might be happy to say it's problematic, but i can't see it myself.

It's a very 'politician' like response. You don't deal with the points I raise in my post other than saying you disagree and making a disconnected analogy....Then you instead ask me a question.

I give up Horsey....You can have this one.

"Wear them down until they give in" has always been my philosophy.

Stereotypes are like lies. Only wrong in particular circumstances.

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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The White Horse 26 May 14 12.57pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.55pm Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media. Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'. Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote. Well done Nick. :) So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS. Well done. :) Na....You know what I voted for.....I was a tiny part of the collective two fingers to the EU federalists. I want an decentralised EU.....For that to happen messages have to be sent. Could i suggest a more federal system of governm.... Oh... "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

26 May 14 12.57pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.55pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm

So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media.

Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'.

Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote.

Well done Nick. :)

So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS.
Well done.

Na....You know what I voted for.....I was a tiny part of the collective two fingers to the EU federalists.

I want an decentralised EU.....For that to happen messages have to be sent.

Could i suggest a more federal system of governm.... Oh...

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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Stirlingsays 26 May 14 12.59pm
Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.56pm "Wear them down until they give in" has always been my philosophy. Stereotypes are like lies. Only wrong in particular circumstances. Stereotypes are fascinating...And of course they aren't all the same...Apart of our natural pattern recognition process. Sometimes true, occasionally half true, often wrong. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

26 May 14 12.59pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.56pm

"Wear them down until they give in" has always been my philosophy.

Stereotypes are like lies. Only wrong in particular circumstances.

Stereotypes are fascinating...And of course they aren't all the same...Apart of our natural pattern recognition process. Sometimes true, occasionally half true, often wrong.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 26 May 14 1.01pm
Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.57pm Could i suggest a more federal system of governm.... Oh... More tea vicar? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

26 May 14 1.01pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.57pm

Could i suggest a more federal system of governm.... Oh...

More tea vicar?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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matt_himself Matataland 26 May 14 1.03pm
Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media. I have asked this before and you have not answered, so will try again. Why did the 'credible' TUSC not pick up more votes? Surely the left need to be examining why they got tonked? Or is there a very complicated reason this should not be the case, no doubt as a result of my 'ignorance'? "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 26 May 14 1.03pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm

So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media.

I have asked this before and you have not answered, so will try again. Why did the 'credible' TUSC not pick up more votes?

Surely the left need to be examining why they got tonked? Or is there a very complicated reason this should not be the case, no doubt as a result of my 'ignorance'?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Matataland 26 May 14 1.04pm
Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.27pm Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm He is generalising about race. Generalising about race = prejudice. I disagree. It's all about intent isn't it? Whether the generalisation is actually an attempt to denigrate or not. If a Boots in Croydon realises it's not selling much sun cream this summer, they can probably conclude that this is because higher black populations in the area are less likely to feel it's necessary. Generalisation about race, sure, but not "prejudice". Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm Prejudice is something you and your ilk have accused UKIP of repeatedly and yet it appears that the left are able to do this. However, when you point it out, it appears, from your perspective, that it is an intelligent piece of commentary as opposed to a piece of prejudice against a group of people he has aimed comments at previously. Interesting perspective Horsey. It is an intelligent piece of commentary, more useful than the facile claim that "BME people are far more likely to vote Labour". Some ethnic groups will generally be more likely to vote for Labour but others not, so it's worth looking at how sub-groups of BME voters act differently. If Ken has made insensitive comments about jews before (maybe you could link me to an Andrew Gilligan piece about it) then they may be an ill-judged group to use in such an example, but one of the best ways to find out why a particular ethnic group votes a particular way is to look at examples where this tendency has changed. Chinese people might be an interesting example because in the UK there are a significant number who are probably having more success in education, employment and business than they would have been when immigrants first arrived. But obviously they've come from an area with an, erm, 'strong left-wing tradition'. Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why? "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 26 May 14 1.04pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.27pm

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm

He is generalising about race. Generalising about race = prejudice.

I disagree. It's all about intent isn't it? Whether the generalisation is actually an attempt to denigrate or not.

If a Boots in Croydon realises it's not selling much sun cream this summer, they can probably conclude that this is because higher black populations in the area are less likely to feel it's necessary. Generalisation about race, sure, but not "prejudice".

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm

Prejudice is something you and your ilk have accused UKIP of repeatedly and yet it appears that the left are able to do this. However, when you point it out, it appears, from your perspective, that it is an intelligent piece of commentary as opposed to a piece of prejudice against a group of people he has aimed comments at previously.

Interesting perspective Horsey.

It is an intelligent piece of commentary, more useful than the facile claim that "BME people are far more likely to vote Labour". Some ethnic groups will generally be more likely to vote for Labour but others not, so it's worth looking at how sub-groups of BME voters act differently.

If Ken has made insensitive comments about jews before (maybe you could link me to an Andrew Gilligan piece about it) then they may be an ill-judged group to use in such an example, but one of the best ways to find out why a particular ethnic group votes a particular way is to look at examples where this tendency has changed.

Chinese people might be an interesting example because in the UK there are a significant number who are probably having more success in education, employment and business than they would have been when immigrants first arrived. But obviously they've come from an area with an, erm, 'strong left-wing tradition'.

Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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The White Horse 26 May 14 1.05pm
Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media. Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'. Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote. Well done Nick. So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS. Well done. Must be tough in nickgusset world where 80% of the country just voted for right wing parties. I prefer to think of it as "two thirds of the country voted for pro EU parties", but I guess that wouldn't even placate you! "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

26 May 14 1.05pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm

So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media.

Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'.

Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote.

Well done Nick.

So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS.
Well done.

Must be tough in nickgusset world where 80% of the country just voted for right wing parties. I prefer to think of it as "two thirds of the country voted for pro EU parties", but I guess that wouldn't even placate you!

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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The White Horse 26 May 14 1.08pm
Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 1.04pm Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.27pm Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm He is generalising about race. Generalising about race = prejudice. I disagree. It's all about intent isn't it? Whether the generalisation is actually an attempt to denigrate or not. If a Boots in Croydon realises it's not selling much sun cream this summer, they can probably conclude that this is because higher black populations in the area are less likely to feel it's necessary. Generalisation about race, sure, but not "prejudice". Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm Prejudice is something you and your ilk have accused UKIP of repeatedly and yet it appears that the left are able to do this. However, when you point it out, it appears, from your perspective, that it is an intelligent piece of commentary as opposed to a piece of prejudice against a group of people he has aimed comments at previously. Interesting perspective Horsey. It is an intelligent piece of commentary, more useful than the facile claim that "BME people are far more likely to vote Labour". Some ethnic groups will generally be more likely to vote for Labour but others not, so it's worth looking at how sub-groups of BME voters act differently. If Ken has made insensitive comments about jews before (maybe you could link me to an Andrew Gilligan piece about it) then they may be an ill-judged group to use in such an example, but one of the best ways to find out why a particular ethnic group votes a particular way is to look at examples where this tendency has changed. Chinese people might be an interesting example because in the UK there are a significant number who are probably having more success in education, employment and business than they would have been when immigrants first arrived. But obviously they've come from an area with an, erm, 'strong left-wing tradition'. Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why? If we're going to go through this again (as I'm sure we did in 2012) can you either save us time and find the thread in an archive somewhere or provide some actual allegations/links to Gilligan's pieces? "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

26 May 14 1.08pm

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 1.04pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.27pm

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm

He is generalising about race. Generalising about race = prejudice.

I disagree. It's all about intent isn't it? Whether the generalisation is actually an attempt to denigrate or not.

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm

Interesting perspective Horsey.

Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why?

If we're going to go through this again (as I'm sure we did in 2012) can you either save us time and find the thread in an archive somewhere or provide some actual allegations/links to Gilligan's pieces?

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 26 May 14 1.09pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.55pm Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media. Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'. Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote. Well done Nick. So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS. Well done. Na....You know what I voted for.....I was a tiny part of the collective two fingers to the EU federalists. I want a decentralised EU.....For that to happen messages have to be sent. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 May 2014 12.57pm) So despite knowing that the ideological standpoint of the party is philosophically to the right, deregulation, privatisation, loss of workers rights etc etc, you voted for them. There was media saturation about ukip. But they weren't the only opponents. Why didn't the mail et al cover the greens more for example. They want a discussion on federal Europe too. Oh hang on, their philosophy doesn't follow the neoliberal agenda does it.?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 26 May 14 1.09pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.55pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm

So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media.

Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'.

Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote.

Well done Nick.

So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS.
Well done.

Na....You know what I voted for.....I was a tiny part of the collective two fingers to the EU federalists.

I want a decentralised EU.....For that to happen messages have to be sent.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 May 2014 12.57pm)

So despite knowing that the ideological standpoint of the party is philosophically to the right, deregulation, privatisation, loss of workers rights etc etc, you voted for them.
There was media saturation about ukip. But they weren't the only opponents. Why didn't the mail et al cover the greens more for example. They want a discussion on federal Europe too. Oh hang on, their philosophy doesn't follow the neoliberal agenda does it.?

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matt_himself Matataland 26 May 14 1.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media. Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'. Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote. Well done Nick. So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS. Well done. Please direct me to the part of the UKIP manifesto which expressly states that the NHS will be subject to 'full scale privatisation'. Not one of your shrill blogs written by some hate filled weirdo but an actual UKIP policy document stating this. I cannot locate this anywhere on their materials. I am sure this is due to my 'ignorance'. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 26 May 14 1.09pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.49pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 26 May 2014 12.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 26 May 2014 12.15pm

So unsurprisingly ukip pissed it last night. Well done Farage. Well done the media.

Oh it's partly the media's fault is it?.....Most of their coverage was negative...Telling us how to think...Loads of 'Ukip is racist'.

Still, you couldn't shut up about them.....You pretty much cemented my vote.

Well done Nick.

So you voted for the regression of maternity rights then. You voted for full scale privatisation of the NHS.
Well done.

Please direct me to the part of the UKIP manifesto which expressly states that the NHS will be subject to 'full scale privatisation'.

Not one of your shrill blogs written by some hate filled weirdo but an actual UKIP policy document stating this.

I cannot locate this anywhere on their materials. I am sure this is due to my 'ignorance'.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 May 14 1.11pm
Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 1.04pm Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why? A lot of Jews enter commerce and capitalist ventures? They've used the leg-up and are highly unlikely to vote Labour again now living in prosperous areas after succeeding and blending in with English culture and not waiting for the handout/ Labour party dependency? Too f*ing useless to correct any problems himself? The shocking amount of empty housing he had the opportunity to reclaim and do something with. Pure envy? COYP**
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 May 14 1.11pm

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 1.04pm

Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why?

A lot of Jews enter commerce and capitalist ventures?

They've used the leg-up and are highly unlikely to vote Labour again now living in prosperous areas after succeeding and blending in with English culture and not waiting for the handout/ Labour party dependency?

Too f***ing useless to correct any problems himself? The shocking amount of empty housing he had the opportunity to reclaim and do something with.

Pure envy?

COYP

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matt_himself Matataland 26 May 14 1.12pm
Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 1.08pm Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 1.04pm Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.27pm Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm He is generalising about race. Generalising about race = prejudice. I disagree. It's all about intent isn't it? Whether the generalisation is actually an attempt to denigrate or not. If a Boots in Croydon realises it's not selling much sun cream this summer, they can probably conclude that this is because higher black populations in the area are less likely to feel it's necessary. Generalisation about race, sure, but not "prejudice". Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm Prejudice is something you and your ilk have accused UKIP of repeatedly and yet it appears that the left are able to do this. However, when you point it out, it appears, from your perspective, that it is an intelligent piece of commentary as opposed to a piece of prejudice against a group of people he has aimed comments at previously. Interesting perspective Horsey. It is an intelligent piece of commentary, more useful than the facile claim that "BME people are far more likely to vote Labour". Some ethnic groups will generally be more likely to vote for Labour but others not, so it's worth looking at how sub-groups of BME voters act differently. If Ken has made insensitive comments about jews before (maybe you could link me to an Andrew Gilligan piece about it) then they may be an ill-judged group to use in such an example, but one of the best ways to find out why a particular ethnic group votes a particular way is to look at examples where this tendency has changed. Chinese people might be an interesting example because in the UK there are a significant number who are probably having more success in education, employment and business than they would have been when immigrants first arrived. But obviously they've come from an area with an, erm, 'strong left-wing tradition'. Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why? If we're going to go through this again (as I'm sure we did in 2012) can you either save us time and find the thread in an archive somewhere or provide some actual allegations/links to Gilligan's pieces? Interesting. I take it you don't wish to answer this and that you cannot find a way to defend Ken by using these diversionary tactics. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 26 May 14 1.12pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 1.08pm

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 1.04pm

Quote The White Horse at 26 May 2014 12.27pm

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm

He is generalising about race. Generalising about race = prejudice.

I disagree. It's all about intent isn't it? Whether the generalisation is actually an attempt to denigrate or not.

Quote matt_himself at 26 May 2014 12.02pm

Interesting perspective Horsey.

Please. He has made numerous comments directed at Jews. Why?

Interesting. I take it you don't wish to answer this and that you cannot find a way to defend Ken by using these diversionary tactics.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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