Due to no game on Saturday...

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Meerkat 2 1957 18 Feb 03 4.18pm
Quote halfmanhalfslug at 18 Feb 2003 3:32pm Is there some evidence you've seen that I haven't? Just curious. No, I've seen the same intelligence that you have, aerial footage, intercepted radio communication, lists of unacounted for nerve agents and biological contaminents. The sort of stuff you can make public without compromising your field agents and informants.
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Meerkat 2

1957 18 Feb 03 4.18pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 18 Feb 2003 3:32pm

Is there some evidence you've seen that I haven't?

Just curious.

No, I've seen the same intelligence that you have, aerial footage, intercepted radio communication, lists of unacounted for nerve agents and biological contaminents. The sort of stuff you can make public without compromising your field agents and informants.

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Bexter By the Sea 18 Feb 03 4.54pm
in your absolutely honest opinion - do you think we are waging this war because we care about the treatment of the iraqis by saddam? why dont we sort out other nasty regimes - because there is no ££ gain - like how late did we finally go into yugoslavia? way too late to save millions. the un evidence is still not evidence enough for a bloody war. no way. i'm with the cheese and sausage eaters on that one - and nelson mandela, and even the darn pope i hate to say!
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Bexter

By the Sea 18 Feb 03 4.54pm

in your absolutely honest opinion - do you think we are waging this war because we care about the treatment of the iraqis by saddam? why dont we sort out other nasty regimes - because there is no ££ gain - like how late did we finally go into yugoslavia? way too late to save millions. the un evidence is still not evidence enough for a bloody war. no way. i'm with the cheese and sausage eaters on that one - and nelson mandela, and even the darn pope i hate to say!

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 18 Feb 03 5.11pm
Indeed. I wonder if we would have stood aside and done nothing if there was oil in Rwanda, for example. With the USA's history of meddling in other countries, causing military coups and civil wars, bombing civilian targets and so forth, don't you think we're entitled to be sceptical? Edited by halfmanhalfslug (18 Feb 2003 5:15pm) face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 18 Feb 03 5.11pm

Indeed. I wonder if we would have stood aside and done nothing if there was oil in Rwanda, for example.

With the USA's history of meddling in other countries, causing military coups and civil wars, bombing civilian targets and so forth, don't you think we're entitled to be sceptical?

Edited by halfmanhalfslug (18 Feb 2003 5:15pm)

face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno

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Meerkat 2 1957 18 Feb 03 5.18pm
Bexter, no I don't think it is the Iraqi people's suffering which is the main reason for the UN to go after Saddam. Neither do I think it is purely oil rights. Yet the richest oil producing country in the world has one of the highest infant mortality rates, mostly through treatable diseases and malnutrition. And no that's not because of that sanctions, it's down to Saddam's way of dealing with the sanctions. The key reason for this 'war' is that Saddam is developing VX, anthrax, ricin, saran etc and sooner or later he WILL sell these substances to the highest bidder, and sooner or later they WILL be used by terrorists somewhere in the world, possibly here. This, to my mind, sets Iraq apart from North Korea, Syria, Israel, Saudi etc. So if Saddam isn't developing these agents then why is he openly obstructing UN weapons inspectors? Why are his goons following them around in radio cars? Why won't he say what happened to the missing Anthrax and VX gas from a decade ago? Why does he need mobile laboratories? Why won't he let his scientists be openly questioned by the inspectors? How long do you give him to put his house in order? a month? two? 5 years? 10 years? Too many questions left unanswered. Edited by Meerkat 2 (18 Feb 2003 5:29pm)
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Meerkat 2

1957 18 Feb 03 5.18pm

Bexter, no I don't think it is the Iraqi people's suffering which is the main reason for the UN to go after Saddam. Neither do I think it is purely oil rights. Yet the richest oil producing country in the world has one of the highest infant mortality rates, mostly through treatable diseases and malnutrition. And no that's not because of that sanctions, it's down to Saddam's way of dealing with the sanctions.

The key reason for this 'war' is that Saddam is developing VX, anthrax, ricin, saran etc and sooner or later he WILL sell these substances to the highest bidder, and sooner or later they WILL be used by terrorists somewhere in the world, possibly here. This, to my mind, sets Iraq apart from North Korea, Syria, Israel, Saudi etc.

So if Saddam isn't developing these agents then why is he openly obstructing UN weapons inspectors? Why are his goons following them around in radio cars? Why won't he say what happened to the missing Anthrax and VX gas from a decade ago? Why does he need mobile laboratories? Why won't he let his scientists be openly questioned by the inspectors?

How long do you give him to put his house in order? a month? two? 5 years? 10 years?

Too many questions left unanswered.

Edited by Meerkat 2 (18 Feb 2003 5:29pm)

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Meerkat 2 1957 18 Feb 03 5.26pm
Quote halfmanhalfslug at 18 Feb 2003 5:11pm Indeed. I wonder if we would have stood aside and done nothing if there was oil in Rwanda, for example. With the USA's history of meddling in other countries, causing military coups and civil wars, bombing civilian targets and so forth, don't you think we're entitled to be sceptical? Edited by halfmanhalfslug (18 Feb 2003 5:15pm) Yes, of course you are right to be sceptical and I'm not saying I agree with US foreign policy over the last 30 years, they have effectively pissed on their chips for a long time. I just believe that Iraq poses a real threat to civilisation and having weighed up the evidence I think that Blair is right on this occasion. I just hope that he can keep Dubya on his leash long enough to convince the cheese eaters not to vito a further UN resolution.
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Meerkat 2

1957 18 Feb 03 5.26pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 18 Feb 2003 5:11pm

Indeed. I wonder if we would have stood aside and done nothing if there was oil in Rwanda, for example.

With the USA's history of meddling in other countries, causing military coups and civil wars, bombing civilian targets and so forth, don't you think we're entitled to be sceptical?

Edited by halfmanhalfslug (18 Feb 2003 5:15pm)

Yes, of course you are right to be sceptical and I'm not saying I agree with US foreign policy over the last 30 years, they have effectively pissed on their chips for a long time. I just believe that Iraq poses a real threat to civilisation and having weighed up the evidence I think that Blair is right on this occasion. I just hope that he can keep Dubya on his leash long enough to convince the cheese eaters not to vito a further UN resolution.

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Bexter By the Sea 18 Feb 03 5.29pm
and why is it you think we all know about his weapons of mass detruction and no one elses in the world? we find out what we are told to find out. what i don't understand is how america has got away with not only having weapons of mass destruction in abundance but also selling them to extremely dodgy regimes - such as the man himself, and not have any repercussions. how does israel get away with how it treats the palestinians? (another fine mess we created) and why have the un said saddam is being more co operative of late? that with more time they may sort this out peacefully? Edited by Bexter (18 Feb 2003 5:31pm)
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Bexter

By the Sea 18 Feb 03 5.29pm

and why is it you think we all know about his weapons of mass detruction and no one elses in the world? we find out what we are told to find out. what i don't understand is how america has got away with not only having weapons of mass destruction in abundance but also selling them to extremely dodgy regimes - such as the man himself, and not have any repercussions. how does israel get away with how it treats the palestinians? (another fine mess we created) and why have the un said saddam is being more co operative of late? that with more time they may sort this out peacefully?

Edited by Bexter (18 Feb 2003 5:31pm)

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Petealiator 1066 Country! 18 Feb 03 6.49pm
Winston: We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. Bexter: Not in my name you won’t! War is not the answer! Where’s the proof? Hitler’s no real threat to Britain! He’s promised to stay out of Poland in any case, do we really care about Poland and what he’s doing to some German Jews or are we declaring war just for ££ and oil? Should we bomb all nasty places now? What about Stalin? He’s killed millions, should we bomb him next? Sod the Jews, send them back to Palestine where they come from! Winston: That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? Bexter: Oil! Money! Empire building. What is Hitler doing that makes him so much worse than say, Stalin? He clearly poses a serious threat to whom? If it’s not actually us, I don’t really care! Winston: I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival. Bexter: Oh yeah, let’s kill thousands of innocent German children, we’re really tough. We should’ve given Neville Chamberlain more time! How could Chamberlain do his job when he’s not being given the time he needs? He’s produced absolutely no evidence of any 'threat', I am all for Chamberlain having more time to find out before we go wading in. Winston: Let that be realised; no survival for the British Empire, no survival for all that the British Empire has stood for, no survival for the urge and impulse of the ages, that mankind will move forward towards its goal. Bexter: Good! I don’t care about the empire, or all that’s British! Who cares, we’re a multicultural society now. If we bomb every country we disagree with, we’re gonna be very busy. We may give a mandate to a government when we elect them to run our country, but when it comes to a war that no one wants which will cost lives - our troops and German citizens, when there is no evidence of any threat - then democracy has failed - it veers on dictatorship when one man makes such a decision with no backing from his people. Winston: But I take up my task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. Bexter: But most people don’t want this war of yours. Why are you the only one who knows about Germany’s plans? How about all these security threats? If they can see a threat then I would like to see it too as I work in central London thanks! I mean, they must have evidence else they wouldn't be deploying tanks at Dover would they? I understand that they have to be careful with intelligence etc but by saying there is no specific threat of invasion they are either lying or deploying tanks for no good reason, or to make a stronger case for war.... who knows? A bit of honesty wouldn't go a miss at this stage, f*** the intelligence gatherers risking their lives for our sake. We should listen to Italy and Japan, I’m with the spaghetti eaters and the nips on this one. Maybe I just don't think bombing their homes is the answer? Do you think we should bomb every country who has an unsavoury leader just out of interest? Winston: At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, "come then, let us go forward together with our united strength." Bexter: No way, there’s an anti-war march on Sunday in Brick Lane and I’ll be there, if you come, wear a black shirt! War is not the answer. Appeasement is where it’s at. Edited by Petealiator (18 Feb 2003 6:52pm) My Rocksteady band... [Link] [Link] IT'S NOT SKA, IT'S ROCKSTEADY!
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Petealiator

1066 Country! 18 Feb 03 6.49pm

Winston: We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime.

Bexter: Not in my name you won’t! War is not the answer! Where’s the proof? Hitler’s no real threat to Britain! He’s promised to stay out of Poland in any case, do we really care about Poland and what he’s doing to some German Jews or are we declaring war just for ££ and oil? Should we bomb all nasty places now? What about Stalin? He’s killed millions, should we bomb him next? Sod the Jews, send them back to Palestine where they come from!

Winston: That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim?

Bexter: Oil! Money! Empire building. What is Hitler doing that makes him so much worse than say, Stalin? He clearly poses a serious threat to whom? If it’s not actually us, I don’t really care!

Winston: I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.

Bexter: Oh yeah, let’s kill thousands of innocent German children, we’re really tough. We should’ve given Neville Chamberlain more time! How could Chamberlain do his job when he’s not being given the time he needs? He’s produced absolutely no evidence of any 'threat', I am all for Chamberlain having more time to find out before we go wading in.

Winston: Let that be realised; no survival for the British Empire, no survival for all that the British Empire has stood for, no survival for the urge and impulse of the ages, that mankind will move forward towards its goal.

Bexter: Good! I don’t care about the empire, or all that’s British! Who cares, we’re a multicultural society now. If we bomb every country we disagree with, we’re gonna be very busy. We may give a mandate to a government when we elect them to run our country, but when it comes to a war that no one wants which will cost lives - our troops and German citizens, when there is no evidence of any threat - then democracy has failed - it veers on dictatorship when one man makes such a decision with no backing from his people.

Winston: But I take up my task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men.

Bexter: But most people don’t want this war of yours. Why are you the only one who knows about Germany’s plans? How about all these security threats? If they can see a threat then I would like to see it too as I work in central London thanks! I mean, they must have evidence else they wouldn't be deploying tanks at Dover would they? I understand that they have to be careful with intelligence etc but by saying there is no specific threat of invasion they are either lying or deploying tanks for no good reason, or to make a stronger case for war.... who knows? A bit of honesty wouldn't go a miss at this stage, f*** the intelligence gatherers risking their lives for our sake. We should listen to Italy and Japan, I’m with the spaghetti eaters and the nips on this one. Maybe I just don't think bombing their homes is the answer? Do you think we should bomb every country who has an unsavoury leader just out of interest?

Winston: At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, "come then, let us go forward together with our united strength."

Bexter: No way, there’s an anti-war march on Sunday in Brick Lane and I’ll be there, if you come, wear a black shirt! War is not the answer. Appeasement is where it’s at.

Edited by Petealiator (18 Feb 2003 6:52pm)

My Rocksteady band...
[Link]
[Link]
IT'S NOT SKA, IT'S ROCKSTEADY!

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Meerkat 2 1957 18 Feb 03 7.21pm
and why is it you think we all know about his weapons of mass detruction and no one elses in the world? we find out what we are told to find out. Of course, and I have no doubt that there are other's doing the same thing but if Dubya is true to his word about a war on terrorism we will no doubt hear about them in due course. Best not to fight on too many fronts at once maybe? what i don't understand is how america has got away with not only having weapons of mass destruction in abundance but also selling them to extremely dodgy regimes - such as the man himself, and not have any repercussions. A valid point although the US is hardly alone in profiting from the arms trade but that's a whole can of worms in itself. Still I don't believe uncle Sam sold Saddam any plutonium, VX or bacterial agents though. how does israel get away with how it treats the palestinians? (another fine mess we created) It gets away with it because of the number of Jews in the US administration. It's s*** and Tony Boy should push this to the top of the agenda once Saddam is toppled. and why have the un said saddam is being more co operative of late? that with more time they may sort this out peacefully? It's because Saddam allowed one minor scientist to be interviewed privately and somebody with a large moustache held a door open for Hans Blix. I'm sorry, if they have nothing to hide then why has it taken over a decade to even begin cooperating?
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Meerkat 2

1957 18 Feb 03 7.21pm

and why is it you think we all know about his weapons of mass detruction and no one elses in the world? we find out what we are told to find out.

Of course, and I have no doubt that there are other's doing the same thing but if Dubya is true to his word about a war on terrorism we will no doubt hear about them in due course. Best not to fight on too many fronts at once maybe?

what i don't understand is how america has got away with not only having weapons of mass destruction in abundance but also selling them to extremely dodgy regimes - such as the man himself, and not have any repercussions.

A valid point although the US is hardly alone in profiting from the arms trade but that's a whole can of worms in itself. Still I don't believe uncle Sam sold Saddam any plutonium, VX or bacterial agents though.

how does israel get away with how it treats the palestinians? (another fine mess we created)

It gets away with it because of the number of Jews in the US administration. It's s*** and Tony Boy should push this to the top of the agenda once Saddam is toppled.

and why have the un said saddam is being more co operative of late? that with more time they may sort this out peacefully?

It's because Saddam allowed one minor scientist to be interviewed privately and somebody with a large moustache held a door open for Hans Blix. I'm sorry, if they have nothing to hide then why has it taken over a decade to even begin cooperating?

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Glad All Over Bath 19 Feb 03 8.55am
Quote Meerkat 2 at 18 Feb 2003 7:21pm Best not to fight on too many fronts at once maybe? Exactly - too many being one.
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Glad All Over

Bath 19 Feb 03 8.55am

Quote Meerkat 2 at 18 Feb 2003 7:21pm
Best not to fight on too many fronts at once maybe?

Exactly - too many being one.

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Glad All Over Bath 19 Feb 03 9.13am
I wonder how Bush would take it if, say, China said "We've had a word with the UN and due to you being the worst global terrorists over the last few decades we want you to destroy all your weapons of mass destruction and having done that allow our inspectors free reign to investigate your most secret areas". Do you think he would say "O.K., no problem, we'll do it without a whimper"? Even if he went along with the resolutions, I think he might be tempted to be a little bit obstructive to try and prove that he was still able to assert his power in some way - don't you?
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Glad All Over

Bath 19 Feb 03 9.13am

I wonder how Bush would take it if, say, China said "We've had a word with the UN and due to you being the worst global terrorists over the last few decades we want you to destroy all your weapons of mass destruction and having done that allow our inspectors free reign to investigate your most secret areas". Do you think he would say "O.K., no problem, we'll do it without a whimper"? Even if he went along with the resolutions, I think he might be tempted to be a little bit obstructive to try and prove that he was still able to assert his power in some way - don't you?

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 19 Feb 03 10.45am
Quote Glad All Over at 19 Feb 2003 9:13am I wonder how Bush would take it if, say, China said "We've had a word with the UN and due to you being the worst global terrorists over the last few decades we want you to destroy all your weapons of mass destruction and having done that allow our inspectors free reign to investigate your most secret areas". Do you think he would say "O.K., no problem, we'll do it without a whimper"? Even if he went along with the resolutions, I think he might be tempted to be a little bit obstructive to try and prove that he was still able to assert his power in some way - don't you? Quite. Meerkat -- the US did sell chemical weapons to Iraq, lots of them. It's well documented. Pete -- leave Hitler out of this please, there is no comparison. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 19 Feb 03 10.45am

Quote Glad All Over at 19 Feb 2003 9:13am

Quite.

Meerkat -- the US did sell chemical weapons to Iraq, lots of them. It's well documented.

Pete -- leave Hitler out of this please, there is no comparison.

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matt_the_eagle Tulse Thrill 19 Feb 03 11.20am
Quote halfmanhalfslug at 19 Feb 2003 10:45am Quote Glad All Over at 19 Feb 2003 9:13am I wonder how Bush would take it if, say, China said "We've had a word with the UN and due to you being the worst global terrorists over the last few decades we want you to destroy all your weapons of mass destruction and having done that allow our inspectors free reign to investigate your most secret areas". Do you think he would say "O.K., no problem, we'll do it without a whimper"? Even if he went along with the resolutions, I think he might be tempted to be a little bit obstructive to try and prove that he was still able to assert his power in some way - don't you? Quite. Meerkat -- the US did sell chemical weapons to Iraq, lots of them. It's well documented. Pete -- leave Hitler out of this please, there is no comparison. Isn't there? I think Keith Murray said it best when he rapped "If you aint fly you cant play with my yo-yo". I'm sure you'll agree.
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matt_the_eagle

Tulse Thrill 19 Feb 03 11.20am