My point on Bin Laden is simple. We didn't get him. All the money and technology and we can't get this guy. That objective has not been met and I feel that Iraq is a smokescreen. I have no disrespect for the National Guard but the National Guard that I know are as fed up with our occupation of Iraq as the 48% of us. Do you really believe Iraq will stand on it's own with a democratic form of government and as a western ally? I won't even mention WMD's, that's been done to death... We are fighting a holy war there were the only gain is for the private sector. Our Economy is in great shape? You are having a laugh. Unemployment was up too in October. Maybe Iowa is faring better then the rest of the nation... Let's use our Budget on National Defence and not OFFENCE.
On a side note, Army....
Are you a Palace Fan?

Oct 26 2002-- Palace 5 Weed 0!!!

Army,
Good to see rationale being used to defend Bush.
My points.
1. Bin Laden not caught yet,
fine, it's work in progress.
2. Freedom for Iraqis and killing off terrorists over there.
Let me have easy picking first. Few terrorist has been killed in Iraq. The folks killed are people who believe who are fighting to liberate their country. They are first time fighters and have no formall training in mass killing. They cannot be termed terrorist. Few terrorist killed would consist of free lancers that would have drifted from other countries. However thay would have never been there had US not occupied Iraq.

In first place your concern for Iraq is flimsy by plenty of historical events. Still I will take it on face value. I have two problems with freedom rant. One that , it is not the reason for invading Iraq. It's an excuse to defend raiding Iraq. Even Iraq talked about freeing Kuwait. Second, that this freedom is restricted to urban centers and more importantly, it is ephemeral. Iraq before embargoes was a country with liberal outlook.

It's not that being proactive is wrong, but choosing terrorsim as an excuse to drive personal agenda is paramount to siding with terrorism. Bush is face of oil lobby and you know it when oil prices went up on news of his election. How do you like a president who fights war for personal whims? It reeks of tribal ages.

3. For economy now. Things look good today because there is incremental improvement. But in absolute terms it is pathetic. You borrow massively and bring BMW and a penthouse and show-case it as progress? Let me concede that Bush came at a time when cyclical recession was due and tax cuts helped as temporary boost. That will not take away the fact that recovery took much longer because of Iraq war threat that loomed long and then has been lingering for long.

4. Kerry as invitation to mass threats.
Mass threats are avoided not by invading random countries with flimsy excuses but by doing small simple things. If at all they are invitation to those event. The country is protected by steps to secure container cargos, airports, banking system e.t.c. I don't see how Kerry would have dampened those efforts that are going under the supervision of Homeland security. If anything, he talked about raising funding for Homeland dept. These demented threats of annihilation is exactly what the mullahs talk about and you know the outcome.

5. Some other sundry points. Gay marriage was opposed by both. Abortion while killing child is also about avoiding unwanted and unloved lives. I appreciate your faith in conservative values and I relate to it but I think you have to evaluate the person whom you are voting for.
Kerry does not have clue on anything? true. who has clue on how to cut deficit. How can an experienced international person say that he will vigorously carry on Iraq war? He knows Iraq war is illegal, but he can't say it. True we couldn't make out who the true Kerry is, but many did clearly see the real Bush. Kerry was worth trying. Guards enjoying their work in Iraq? I heard at one point their leaves were cancelled.

6. You can breathe, so environment is not an issue for you, right? So I won't even talk about it.

The biggest wrong that Bush has wrought on US is that he has taken away the focus from real issues that affect everyone (economy & environment), turned focus on non-issue (Iraq by invasion& morality in election) and you have paid for it and will pay for long (high oil price & massive deficit to be followed by Dollar depreciation and Argentina like inflation).

Valid points raised by Tsatck and mikeyeagle in the discussion.

I think I will like to have another discussion by Bush opposers where we think of positive things that Bush might still be able to do for US and the world in general. I am asking for discussions because I am myself short on such ideas.

regards,
Vikram

Army Bratt - There was more to "pissing the world off" than Iraq (which I assume you refer to when you say the "corrupt" UN, France, Germany etc.

For a start, why did the greatest polluter on the planet pull out of the Kyoto accords? Why is the U.S. the only major Western country to not sign up to the International Criminal Court (which would be putting the likes of Hussein on trial)? Why does the U.S. continue to prop up Israel and back its every move?

Regarding your points on Iraq - if this was such a benevolent humanitarian intervention, why didnt Bush Snr do the job back in 1990? The worst of Saddam's atrocities had been committed in the late 80's!

Do you not think that if Bin Laden was "got" then Bush would be screaming it from the rooftops? Or at least pointing to the prospect you offered (that he is buried under Tora Bora).

As for the Liberals being out to eliminate Christianity, give it a break. Thats possibly the worst, most unfounded accusation I've heard yet. Liberals promoting choice is entirely different. Of course I take this all back if it turns out that wild packs of liberals are going round razing every church in America to the ground

And on a final, general note - I'm well aware that my points regard U.S. foreign policy. I don't know enough about domestic policy, so I will leave that open to debate. I just believe that as the U.S. has quite so much power, and at a time of war especially, foreign policy carries an extra weight of importance.

Edited by Legal Eagle (08 Nov 2004 4:38pm)

It's just a matter of crossing the i's and dotting the t's

[redacted]

They're a bit thick in Oregon, aren't they!

Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.