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Stirlingsays 26 Dec 17 7.00pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Shocking as it is 2,167 Palestinian children and 134 Israeli children have been killed since September 29, 2000. Scum on both sides but for those that see Israel as having the moral high ground the majority of Palestinian children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers. I don't see the right being voted out in Israel and I don't see Hamas allowing elections...the last one being in January 2006. I see Israel continuing the land grab. They gave up on the two solution idea long ago.....and the rocket fire ensures the policy isn't changing. I see no good solutions to any of it anymore. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2017 7.24pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

26 Dec 17 7.00pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Shocking as it is 2,167 Palestinian children and 134 Israeli children have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Scum on both sides but for those that see Israel as having the moral high ground the majority of Palestinian children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.

I don't see the right being voted out in Israel and I don't see Hamas allowing elections...the last one being in January 2006.

I see Israel continuing the land grab. They gave up on the two solution idea long ago.....and the rocket fire ensures the policy isn't changing.

I see no good solutions to any of it anymore.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2017 7.24pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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johnno42000 26 Dec 17 7.20pm
Originally posted by kenbarr Reading this thread makes me more convinced than ever that Jerusalem should not belong to ay country, let alone be a capital city. A place of Jerusalem's importance to many religions should not belong to any political entity. I was thinking this the other day. Could the UN not put a mixed force there to take it out of the conflict? I realise it doesn't solve everything but I don't think it could do anymore harm. 'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
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johnno42000

26 Dec 17 7.20pm

Originally posted by kenbarr

Reading this thread makes me more convinced than ever that Jerusalem should not belong to ay country, let alone be a capital city. A place of Jerusalem's importance to many religions should not belong to any political entity.

I was thinking this the other day. Could the UN not put a mixed force there to take it out of the conflict? I realise it doesn't solve everything but I don't think it could do anymore harm.

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

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chris123 hove actually 26 Dec 17 8.07pm
Originally posted by kenbarr Reading this thread makes me more convinced than ever that Jerusalem should not belong to ay country, let alone be a capital city. A place of Jerusalem's importance to many religions should not belong to any political entity. It was until 1967.
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chris123

hove actually 26 Dec 17 8.07pm

Originally posted by kenbarr

It was until 1967.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 17 1.57pm
Originally posted by johnno42000 I was thinking this the other day. Could the UN not put a mixed force there to take it out of the conflict? I realise it doesn't solve everything but I don't think it could do anymore harm. Not without the vote of the security council, which would almost certainly be veto'd by the US. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 17 1.57pm

Originally posted by johnno42000

I was thinking this the other day. Could the UN not put a mixed force there to take it out of the conflict? I realise it doesn't solve everything but I don't think it could do anymore harm.

Not without the vote of the security council, which would almost certainly be veto'd by the US.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 17 2.03pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Would you like to watch videos of Hamas throwing people off roofs? I support the democratic western minded state, whilst recognising that you aren't wrong about crimes. Hamas really only exist because of the failure to achieve a reasonable settlement over the Israeli-Palestine problem. Realistically, the best chance for a solution to the problem has long passed and that would have been the PLO era - Better leftists than Fundamentalism - And its going to be a similar problem throughout the middle east, as the only political entities resisting dictatorships and totalitarian states are the Islamic fundamentalists. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 17 2.03pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Would you like to watch videos of Hamas throwing people off roofs?

I support the democratic western minded state, whilst recognising that you aren't wrong about crimes.

Hamas really only exist because of the failure to achieve a reasonable settlement over the Israeli-Palestine problem. Realistically, the best chance for a solution to the problem has long passed and that would have been the PLO era - Better leftists than Fundamentalism - And its going to be a similar problem throughout the middle east, as the only political entities resisting dictatorships and totalitarian states are the Islamic fundamentalists.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 17 2.14pm
Originally posted by BarEagle That is a terrible comparison. Terrible and shameful. Israelis react they don't randomly, systematically or recklessly send indiscriminate bombs into the other side of the border. Neither do they capture innocent Israelis off the street and torture them on the basis of a political agenda. They react to murder. An objective historical understanding of what Palestine really is may be a start. Pretty sure this isn't entirely true as a large number of Arabs hold Israeli citizenship including Palestinians- and Israel isn't beyond utilising terrorism and terrorist tactics, such as murder and bombings to 'target suspects' and civilians they've deemed enemy of the state. Israel often claims a moral highground from the point of being a democratic state - however Mossad and Shin Bet are well established as operating well outside of what most countries would consider legal or legitimate even for Intelligence Agencies. Israels own supreme court ruled that Shin Bet introgation techniques were torture - and that this had been covered up for decades. The majority would have been Palestinian detainees, who if they live in occupied territories would be Israeli citizens under UN law. Israel does not fight threats in a manner that even the US under Bush would have considered. They operate in very much the same manner as the groups that attack them. They make the SAS's 'Big Boy's Rules' look tame. Edited by jamiemartin721 (27 Dec 2017 2.16pm) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 17 2.14pm

Originally posted by BarEagle

That is a terrible comparison. Terrible and shameful. Israelis react they don't randomly, systematically or recklessly send indiscriminate bombs into the other side of the border. Neither do they capture innocent Israelis off the street and torture them on the basis of a political agenda.

They react to murder. An objective historical understanding of what Palestine really is may be a start.

Pretty sure this isn't entirely true as a large number of Arabs hold Israeli citizenship including Palestinians- and Israel isn't beyond utilising terrorism and terrorist tactics, such as murder and bombings to 'target suspects' and civilians they've deemed enemy of the state.

Israel often claims a moral highground from the point of being a democratic state - however Mossad and Shin Bet are well established as operating well outside of what most countries would consider legal or legitimate even for Intelligence Agencies.

Israels own supreme court ruled that Shin Bet introgation techniques were torture - and that this had been covered up for decades. The majority would have been Palestinian detainees, who if they live in occupied territories would be Israeli citizens under UN law.

Israel does not fight threats in a manner that even the US under Bush would have considered. They operate in very much the same manner as the groups that attack them. They make the SAS's 'Big Boy's Rules' look tame.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (27 Dec 2017 2.16pm)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 17 2.24pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I don't see the right being voted out in Israel and I don't see Hamas allowing elections...the last one being in January 2006. I see Israel continuing the land grab. They gave up on the two solution idea long ago.....and the rocket fire ensures the policy isn't changing. I see no good solutions to any of it anymore. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2017 7.24pm) Hamas Military Wing, which is independent from the Political Wings, and Lukid both need the conflict to be relevant politically, and to maintain political power. Even if Hamas politically wanted to compromise, its almost certain that the Military Wings wouldn't follow suit (and indeed have in the past deliberately created conflict). Lukid in periods of relative peace and progress have often 'retaliated' for events long past. Peace favours neither party. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 17 2.24pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I don't see the right being voted out in Israel and I don't see Hamas allowing elections...the last one being in January 2006.

I see Israel continuing the land grab. They gave up on the two solution idea long ago.....and the rocket fire ensures the policy isn't changing.

I see no good solutions to any of it anymore.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Dec 2017 7.24pm)

Hamas Military Wing, which is independent from the Political Wings, and Lukid both need the conflict to be relevant politically, and to maintain political power. Even if Hamas politically wanted to compromise, its almost certain that the Military Wings wouldn't follow suit (and indeed have in the past deliberately created conflict). Lukid in periods of relative peace and progress have often 'retaliated' for events long past.

Peace favours neither party.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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silvertop Portishead 27 Dec 17 4.11pm
Originally posted by BarEagle I disagree. The Anti-Semitic media in this country is brainwashing people. You do know Israel is a safe place, has a rule of law, has a Muslim woman in its Cabinet and seeks to engage a multicultural society... However, Hamas etc. Err what? You do realise there are a lot of jews working in the "anti semetic" british media - many in positions of considerable power and influence? Israel is a beacon for democracy in the middle East. Sadly, the millennia of oppression that has traditionally informed liberal, pragmatic and highly learned jewish thoughts has been bullied into second place in Israel behind more conservative, paranoid politics buoyed by the unwavering support of American evangelicals. That has lamentably dominated their horrible policies for too long. As for hammas Lord protect us if they were ever to rule over anywhere but the sh1tty little hole they control. Then again, don't blame Palestinians for supporting those loons. They are a product of oppression both from Israel and beyond. Hamas is probably seen as the only organisation sufficuently strong to support their cause but not paying lip srvice to the usa. Like sinn fein, given a more progressive approach from israel and with multi national support, hamas could eventually be brought into the fold of proper political leadership rather than gun toting thugs. Sadly, never happen under the current israeli regime or a republican leadership.
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silvertop

Portishead 27 Dec 17 4.11pm

Originally posted by BarEagle

I disagree. The Anti-Semitic media in this country is brainwashing people. You do know Israel is a safe place, has a rule of law, has a Muslim woman in its Cabinet and seeks to engage a multicultural society...

However, Hamas etc.

Err what? You do realise there are a lot of jews working in the "anti semetic" british media - many in positions of considerable power and influence?

Israel is a beacon for democracy in the middle East. Sadly, the millennia of oppression that has traditionally informed liberal, pragmatic and highly learned jewish thoughts has been bullied into second place in Israel behind more conservative, paranoid politics buoyed by the unwavering support of American evangelicals. That has lamentably dominated their horrible policies for too long.

As for hammas Lord protect us if they were ever to rule over anywhere but the sh1tty little hole they control. Then again, don't blame Palestinians for supporting those loons. They are a product of oppression both from Israel and beyond. Hamas is probably seen as the only organisation sufficuently strong to support their cause but not paying lip srvice to the usa. Like sinn fein, given a more progressive approach from israel and with multi national support, hamas could eventually be brought into the fold of proper political leadership rather than gun toting thugs. Sadly, never happen under the current israeli regime or a republican leadership.

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silvertop Portishead 27 Dec 17 4.16pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Not without the vote of the security council, which would almost certainly be veto'd by the US. Yup there you have it. This is one problem that could be solved if only evangelical Americans would concentrate really hard and somehow double their IQ levels to 2.
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silvertop

Portishead 27 Dec 17 4.16pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Not without the vote of the security council, which would almost certainly be veto'd by the US.

Yup there you have it. This is one problem that could be solved if only evangelical Americans would concentrate really hard and somehow double their IQ levels to 2.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 17 4.25pm
Originally posted by BarEagle I disagree. The Anti-Semitic media in this country is brainwashing people. You do know Israel is a safe place, has a rule of law, has a Muslim woman in its Cabinet and seeks to engage a multicultural society... However, Hamas etc. Do you know that semitic includes Arabs? I think most peoples issues with Israel really stem from the occupation and settlements of land from 1967 onwards - The problems this has caused throughout the middle east. I'm not sure you can really class yourself as multi-cultural whilst illegally occupying another peoples and denying them basic legal rights (in contry to the UN laws of responsibility relating to occupying nations and occupied people). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 17 4.25pm

Originally posted by BarEagle

However, Hamas etc.

Do you know that semitic includes Arabs? I think most peoples issues with Israel really stem from the occupation and settlements of land from 1967 onwards - The problems this has caused throughout the middle east.

I'm not sure you can really class yourself as multi-cultural whilst illegally occupying another peoples and denying them basic legal rights (in contry to the UN laws of responsibility relating to occupying nations and occupied people).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 17 4.34pm
Originally posted by silvertop Yup there you have it. This is one problem that could be solved if only evangelical Americans would concentrate really hard and somehow double their IQ levels to 2. Its not really even the Evangelicals, its about trade - in the case of the US, military trade. When it comes to politics, evangelicals are thrown scraps, rather than having real influence. Its all about money Israel spends 1/5th of its budget on military. Israel is one of the biggest military spenders in the world. Where as the UK might buy some US planes - Israel buys the planes, the pilot training, the ATC, the weapon systems, the software, the weapons, the flight suit, the runway etc. And thats why the US protects them so avidedly, because if they didn't, the UK, China, France or Russia would just become the 'new veto providing weapon provider'. They're the number one country to do business with, if you're in the business of defence. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 17 4.34pm

Originally posted by silvertop

Yup there you have it. This is one problem that could be solved if only evangelical Americans would concentrate really hard and somehow double their IQ levels to 2.

Its not really even the Evangelicals, its about trade - in the case of the US, military trade. When it comes to politics, evangelicals are thrown scraps, rather than having real influence. Its all about money

Israel spends 1/5th of its budget on military.

Israel is one of the biggest military spenders in the world. Where as the UK might buy some US planes - Israel buys the planes, the pilot training, the ATC, the weapon systems, the software, the weapons, the flight suit, the runway etc.

And thats why the US protects them so avidedly, because if they didn't, the UK, China, France or Russia would just become the 'new veto providing weapon provider'.

They're the number one country to do business with, if you're in the business of defence.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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silvertop Portishead 27 Dec 17 6.01pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Its not really even the Evangelicals, its about trade - in the case of the US, military trade. When it comes to politics, evangelicals are thrown scraps, rather than having real influence. Its all about money Israel spends 1/5th of its budget on military. Israel is one of the biggest military spenders in the world. Where as the UK might buy some US planes - Israel buys the planes, the pilot training, the ATC, the weapon systems, the software, the weapons, the flight suit, the runway etc. And thats why the US protects them so avidedly, because if they didn't, the UK, China, France or Russia would just become the 'new veto providing weapon provider'. They're the number one country to do business with, if you're in the business of defence. You know i would agree this point (and undoubtedly it is a significant factor) if it were not for the radically different way israel behaves under republican regimes as under democrats. Literally the DAY before a democrat is sworn in you can guarantee that Israel will bomb some densely populated part of the gaza strip in the hope that they may take out a person who they think might be there. Under the democrats they actually have to behave like the crucible of middle East liberal democracy that they loudly proclaim to be. Conversely, evangelical Christian republicans will happily endorse their client state slaughtering the palestian first born while conveniently forgetting (or rather being wholly ignorant of the fact) that 1:11 Palestinians are actually christians.
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silvertop

Portishead 27 Dec 17 6.01pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Israel spends 1/5th of its budget on military.

And thats why the US protects them so avidedly, because if they didn't, the UK, China, France or Russia would just become the 'new veto providing weapon provider'.

They're the number one country to do business with, if you're in the business of defence.

You know i would agree this point (and undoubtedly it is a significant factor) if it were not for the radically different way israel behaves under republican regimes as under democrats.

Literally the DAY before a democrat is sworn in you can guarantee that Israel will bomb some densely populated part of the gaza strip in the hope that they may take out a person who they think might be there. Under the democrats they actually have to behave like the crucible of middle East liberal democracy that they loudly proclaim to be.

Conversely, evangelical Christian republicans will happily endorse their client state slaughtering the palestian first born while conveniently forgetting (or rather being wholly ignorant of the fact) that 1:11 Palestinians are actually christians.

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