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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 17 12.59pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
They don't - and I think its weird that you think that's what the relationship between poverty and violent crime means. What it means is that poverty feeds into a social environment that creates dysfunction that results in people having that kind of attitude to life, and the lives of others. Its not an excuse its a reason why it occurs. The impact of poverty is a very well established factor in crime and the production of negative social aspects that lead to dysfunctional upbringings. The longer we just ignore that, the longer we create a major factor that feeds into the production of such people. Its not the 'not having money' its the impact that living has in poverty on how people grow up and learn values. Values have nothing to do with poverty. Poor people often have a stronger sense of morality than the wealthy. I'd say that it is more about culture and one that is often passed on through generations. Once upon a time in this country, poverty meant starving and crime to put food on the table was excusable. Now criminality is about attitude and those who have criminal minds are only sometimes poor in relative terms. Some of those habits have been passed on by those who have originally come from far more poverty stricken places than Britain. Sometimes, influences outside of family feed the desire to lead a certain lifestyle where indifference to others is encouraged.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 17 2.44pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Values have nothing to do with poverty. Poor people often have a stronger sense of morality than the wealthy. I'd say that it is more about culture and one that is often passed on through generations. Once upon a time in this country, poverty meant starving and crime to put food on the table was excusable. Now criminality is about attitude and those who have criminal minds are only sometimes poor in relative terms. Some of those habits have been passed on by those who have originally come from far more poverty stricken places than Britain. Sometimes, influences outside of family feed the desire to lead a certain lifestyle where indifference to others is encouraged. Being poor, and being impoverished are two different things though. It compounds issues, like morality, absent parents, petty crime, domestic violence, drug and alcohol addiction which in turn create dysfunctional environments in which people learn social rules and morals - we learn from our parents how to be 'moral citizens', and things that interrupt that process create dysfunction in how we learn to live in the world and with others. Whilst these themes occur outside of poverty, what is important is how they impact child development, and the capacity to 'deal with them' - which if your poor is much harder to mitigate.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 17 2.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Values have nothing to do with poverty. Poor people often have a stronger sense of morality than the wealthy. I'd say that it is more about culture and one that is often passed on through generations. Once upon a time in this country, poverty meant starving and crime to put food on the table was excusable. Now criminality is about attitude and those who have criminal minds are only sometimes poor in relative terms. Some of those habits have been passed on by those who have originally come from far more poverty stricken places than Britain. Sometimes, influences outside of family feed the desire to lead a certain lifestyle where indifference to others is encouraged. A poor person steals to put food on the table, that's not the problem, its that it then teaches their kids that stealing is ok, or that person ends up in prison and absent from that childs life. More realistically, poverty rather than being poor, creates selfishness, where people steal not to feed their kids, but to spend on themselves or fund drug habits, rather than spend that money on their family. That's the problem of poverty - not that you don't have money, but the way it erodes positive influences or opportunity.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 02 Aug 17 3.07pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
A poor person steals to put food on the table, that's not the problem, its that it then teaches their kids that stealing is ok, or that person ends up in prison and absent from that childs life. More realistically, poverty rather than being poor, creates selfishness, where people steal not to feed their kids, but to spend on themselves or fund drug habits, rather than spend that money on their family. That's the problem of poverty - not that you don't have money, but the way it erodes positive influences or opportunity. When does it become a problem then? At what level of 'poverty' does it become ok to steal? Are we allowed to take into account why the thief is in poverty in the first place?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 17 3.19pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
A poor person steals to put food on the table, that's not the problem, its that it then teaches their kids that stealing is ok, or that person ends up in prison and absent from that childs life. More realistically, poverty rather than being poor, creates selfishness, where people steal not to feed their kids, but to spend on themselves or fund drug habits, rather than spend that money on their family. That's the problem of poverty - not that you don't have money, but the way it erodes positive influences or opportunity. OK. So now we are getting closer on this. My problem is that these anti social attitudes already exist in some people who arrive here from other countries and that 'culture' is then on our streets.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 17 3.35pm | |
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I understand why some people turn to crime - for example financial reasons, liking drugs etc. But where it gets interesting is why people choose certain types of crime, especially repeat crimes and anti-social crime. I think poverty impacts that, not causes it, but aggravates the appeal of certain types of crime that isn't 'rational'. Like thugs who just beat people up for fun. Poverty plays a role in making thrill crimes that deal with individual inadequacy fulfilment acceptable outcomes, because it creates alienation, lack of opportunities and achieving means of self worth. How many people who beat their wives just acting out their own inadequancies on other people. Poverty plays a role in enforcing those inadequancies and failings - because it reinforces the idea of being a failure in people - and their only means of sublimating those feelings, is in deviant behaviour.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 17 3.37pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
When does it become a problem then? At what level of 'poverty' does it become ok to steal? Are we allowed to take into account why the thief is in poverty in the first place? Its not a problem, because its a rational decision that's understandable. Of course its a problem but more because the end result is going to be a parent likely ending up in prison, and justifying immoral behaviour to your kids.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 17 3.55pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I understand why some people turn to crime - for example financial reasons, liking drugs etc. But where it gets interesting is why people choose certain types of crime, especially repeat crimes and anti-social crime. I think poverty impacts that, not causes it, but aggravates the appeal of certain types of crime that isn't 'rational'. Like thugs who just beat people up for fun. Poverty plays a role in making thrill crimes that deal with individual inadequacy fulfilment acceptable outcomes, because it creates alienation, lack of opportunities and achieving means of self worth. How many people who beat their wives just acting out their own inadequancies on other people. Poverty plays a role in enforcing those inadequancies and failings - because it reinforces the idea of being a failure in people - and their only means of sublimating those feelings, is in deviant behaviour. I've no doubt that all of that is true and yet many people from impoverished backgrounds commit little or no crime. Immigration is a factor in all this because we are allowing people to come here, some of whom are already indoctrinated with a different set of moral standards resulting from a more impoverished environment and it seems, no capacity to know right from wrong.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 02 Aug 17 4.08pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I've no doubt that all of that is true and yet many people from impoverished backgrounds commit little or no crime. Immigration is a factor in all this because we are allowing people to come here, some of whom are already indoctrinated with a different set of moral standards resulting from a more impoverished environment and it seems, no capacity to know right from wrong. You are funny.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 02 Aug 17 4.18pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Its not a problem, because its a rational decision that's understandable. Of course its a problem but more because the end result is going to be a parent likely ending up in prison, and justifying immoral behaviour to your kids. Not a problem? A rational decision that is understandable? At what point is someone entitled to say they will not obey laws because they perceive themselves to be poor in some degree?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 17 4.30pm | |
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You are pathetic.
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Ray in Houston Houston 02 Aug 17 11.05pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Not a problem? A rational decision that is understandable? At what point is someone entitled to say they will not obey laws because they perceive themselves to be poor in some degree?
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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