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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 4.39pm | |
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Originally posted by Sedlescombe
Having spent thirty years in the Liberal Party and the Liberal Democrats - and I owe the by-election in Croydon for that - until I resigned over the coalition it feels very much part of the same problem. Where you see a Liberal elite I see a complete absence of liberals though doubtless many of them are well-meaning enough. What I object to is people buying advantage for themselves and their family regardless of talent. Let people achieve based upon merit and abilities not because they were given a head start in life. One of the benefits of success is to pass that advantage on to one's offspring. If I were very rich, I'd ensure that my kids had everything they might need, including a private education. I don't think we can criticise people for that attitude but clearly it does present a problem for our society where potential incompetents are in top jobs and a closed shop based on old school tie cronyism develops. It is up to institutions to make policy that discourage that sort of behavior because we can't deny people the fruits of their father's or even their great great great grandfathers labour.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Mar 17 4.39pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Is there an unspoken pressure? Research suggests that unconscious prejudices aren't significant in interviews, but more as a means by which candidate lists are reduced. This is true both of sports and jobs, and its not just on the basis of race (its much broader, its harder to get a job interview if you have an name people associate with negative issues). However, at interview, where the interaction is face to face, you don't tend to see the same degree of prejudice (racial discrimination, even among people who are overtly racist aren't consistant, there tends to be them (the people you don't know) and the 'good ones' (the people you do know). Prejudice is a bit bizarre like that, but it makes sense entirely when you look a research of Social Identity theory, such as Tajfal, which shows how normal people tend to discriminate against others based on perceived similarities / differences.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 07 Mar 17 4.41pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Although it should be pointed out that the intolerance and authoritarian nature of the so called Liberal Left is reserved for those who are intolerant. Is it really intolerant to not be accepting of homophobia, sexism, racial prejudice etc. Now I agree that some people are too quick to play the instant 'racism' card, and overlook the argument being made and engage in it properly (such as race and crime), but they're f**ktards and every side of the argument has its fair share. Personally, I'm fairly intolerant of racism, sexism, homophobia, religious justifications, transpobia etc and I can live with that paradox. I take it then that you are intolerant of the widely held views on these matters in the Muslim communities?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Username Horsham 07 Mar 17 4.42pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Well I don't know about that. Are you saying that liberals don't watch football? No, but they are already football fans, and less likely to be 'turned' off by the rule not coming in, compared to conservatives being annoyed by the change. Kaepernick's protest is a good example. Liberal football fans weren't exactly vocal about the issue before it happened, but there were plenty of conservative fanbases who were outraged when it started to happen.
Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time. |
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 4.43pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
There is an argument that sentencing should not be set by the Judge on the case, but by a judge who has worked the case working from a 'redacted transcript' that removes details of the offender and defendent's name, occupation, social class etc. That way, the judges preconceptions of the defendant are removed entirely and placed instead on the argument of the case. Sounds reasonable. I'd say that the most important factor is protecting society at the end of the day.
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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Mar 17 4.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
One of the benefits of success is to pass that advantage on to one's offspring. If I were very rich, I'd ensure that my kids had everything they might need, including a private education. I don't think we can criticise people for that attitude but clearly it does present a problem for our society where potential incompetents are in top jobs and a closed shop based on old school tie cronyism develops. It is up to institutions to make policy that discourage that sort of behavior because we can't deny people the fruits of their father's or even their great great great grandfathers labour. I don't think we are far apart here and I am conscious that I have the luxury of a couple of great local schools for my kids. I think the key as you say is in openness in these jobs that is truly based upon merit
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Mar 17 4.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
One of the benefits of success is to pass that advantage on to one's offspring. If I were very rich, I'd ensure that my kids had everything they might need, including a private education. I don't think we can criticise people for that attitude but clearly it does present a problem for our society where potential incompetents are in top jobs and a closed shop based on old school tie cronyism develops. It is up to institutions to make policy that discourage that sort of behavior because we can't deny people the fruits of their father's or even their great great great grandfathers labour. I would too. I think I'd also like to spend some of that hypothetical wealth helping others, such as setting up scholarship grants for 'poor kids' to pay for university or private school. Its very important that in 'implementing socialism' we do not remove the incentive to work. Kids shouldn't be prevented from the best education if they show the potential to benefit from it. But its important that we don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone is the same ability or interests. Just 'allowing everyone to go to university' isn't an answer, it should be focused on those who 'earn a place'. The real failure is that we don't offer suitable alternatives to a good career that don't require higher educational achievement. For example, apprenticeships, work place programs etc. You shouldn't need to go to university to become a lawyer or solicitor, there should exist an equal level of intake based on legal apprenticeships (in fact most people don't realise these even exist anymore - And that as a school leaver you could become a solicitor quicker than if you went to college, university and post-grad training). The reason these have become less popular, is of course companies and businesses don't want to pay for training and production of skilled employees, when the state and more recently the prospective employee can shoulder the burden.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 4.51pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Research suggests that unconscious prejudices aren't significant in interviews, but more as a means by which candidate lists are reduced. This is true both of sports and jobs, and its not just on the basis of race (its much broader, its harder to get a job interview if you have an name people associate with negative issues). However, at interview, where the interaction is face to face, you don't tend to see the same degree of prejudice (racial discrimination, even among people who are overtly racist aren't consistant, there tends to be them (the people you don't know) and the 'good ones' (the people you do know). Prejudice is a bit bizarre like that, but it makes sense entirely when you look a research of Social Identity theory, such as Tajfal, which shows how normal people tend to discriminate against others based on perceived similarities / differences. I think that is a reality of life and as a person in a minority it is inevitable that you will receive a greater proportion. Some people just don't like the potential issues with employing someone of a different ethnicity or they prefer to work with people of their own ethnicity. That is inevitable to a greater or lesser degree while humans are humans.
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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Mar 17 4.52pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
So you think that having a go at Trump answers the charges against the UK liberal left? I am not having a go at Trump I am saying his actions fall within your description of the liberal left. Your charges are false as I have explained elsewhere in these threads. If there is a conspiracy in the establishment it is of public school t***s few of whom are liberals or Liberals
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Mar 17 4.54pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Sounds reasonable. I'd say that the most important factor is protecting society at the end of the day. Yes, it should be the priority, with an emphasis on rehabilitation. Sadly, prison is actually now all about keeping the costs down, and numbers up. The most important thing about prison is making it serve social purpose. It has to identify those who can be rehabilited, and incentivise rehabilition as well as addressing issues within prisoners that relate to offending. My personal opinion, is that release should be earned. If you're going to prison, the point of release should be determined by achieving objectives whilst inside. We should be helping those who want to change, and not just punishing people and then releasing them.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Username Horsham 07 Mar 17 4.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
One of the benefits of success is to pass that advantage on to one's offspring. If I were very rich, I'd ensure that my kids had everything they might need, including a private education. I don't think we can criticise people for that attitude but clearly it does present a problem for our society where potential incompetents are in top jobs and a closed shop based on old school tie cronyism develops. It is up to institutions to make policy that discourage that sort of behavior because we can't deny people the fruits of their father's or even their great great great grandfathers labour.
I have no problem with someone who has the means choosing to pay £41,000 a year to send their child to Dulwich for example. The issue is, as you say, it becomes a closed shop. When people are turned away from interviews because they are up against someone who has 'Harrow' on their CV. I think it's pretty disheartening when you look at Government and see a group of people who all went to school together are running the show.
Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time. |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 07 Mar 17 4.57pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I think that is a reality of life and as a person in a minority it is inevitable that you will receive a greater proportion. Some people just don't like the potential issues with employing someone of a different ethnicity or they prefer to work with people of their own ethnicity. That is inevitable to a greater or lesser degree while humans are humans. People who might be a bit racist... Which is an inevitability of the human race. Did I read that right?
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