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 Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 02 Aug 14 8.06pm |
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Quote reborn at 02 Aug 2014 5.26pm
If anyone doubts the devil exists, look to Isis, pure evil. Strange the world seems much more appalled by the actions of Israel, when Isis massacre every day more Muslims than Israel has in the whole of this offensive. Eloquently put old boy....
Pro USA & Israel |
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 02 Aug 14 8.12pm |
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Quote reborn at 02 Aug 2014 5.26pm
If anyone doubts the devil exists, look to Isis, pure evil. Strange the world seems much more appalled by the actions of Israel, when Isis massacre every day more Muslims than Israel has in the whole of this offensive. I am afraid that it is true of all fundamental religions, the need to get rid of the competition. At the movement, it is the Shias who ISIS massacre, so you don't hear it.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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nickgusset  Shizzlehurst 02 Aug 14 8.44pm |
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From a union friend... Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East? Let me explain. We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS. We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like. We don’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him. We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS. So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends, If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less. And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists It's quite simple, really.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 14 10.30pm |
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Quote Jimenez at 02 Aug 2014 8.06pm
Quote reborn at 02 Aug 2014 5.26pm
If anyone doubts the devil exists, look to Isis, pure evil. Strange the world seems much more appalled by the actions of Israel, when Isis massacre every day more Muslims than Israel has in the whole of this offensive. Eloquently put old boy.... Yeah but we don't sell weapons to ISIS or regard them as a soverign nation under UN obligations etc. They're just a bunch of terrorists. Plus its hard to get reporters into the ISIS areas, what with the danger and all that. Where as Israel is pretty safe.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 14 10.40pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 31 Jul 2014 9.20pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jul 2014 10.50am
Arguably only Israel has the real power to end the conflict, essentially by raising the standards of living in Palestine and granting increasing autonomy to the PA. Increasing prosperity of opportunity in Northern Ireland for Catholics, and the poorest groups of protestants, was probably as important to the peace process as Trimble, Mowlem and Adams. Whilst people have less or nothing much to lose, they'll will fight for more. The problem is that certain factions in Palestine won't allow that, as it undermines their own position as the 'authentic resistance'. Arguably, Israel's best time to have achieved that was back in the days of the PLO and Arafat. If only a new government in Israel didn't have Hamas to work with in an opposition government.....Maybe some tentative progress could be made. At the moment it only appears that the 'far right' on both sides continue to win with their own insular agendas. It manages to work quite well on a daily basis with the Palestinian Authority, which is also under Hamas. The problem is that Hamas is essentially three movements that are independent: The Militant wing, Al-Qassam Brigades, are independently financed and led from the political wing. So whilst they're a part of Hamas, they're also independent. The relationship between them is more akin to that of Sinn Fein and the IRA. Both have a similar cause, and influence on each other, but ultimately they're incapable of dictating policy for one another. Its further complicated in that the Palestinian Authority has neither the infrastructure, resources or equipment to clamp down on the Al-Qassam Brigades even if it wanted to as the PA Police and Military capacity is barely existent (and no match militarily for the Al-Qassam Brigades and related militant groups in Gaza anyhow). Realistically, any peaceful settlement would almost certainly require Israel accepting the 1967 Borders (that's about as far as Hamas more forward thinking can probably drag its militant members, without alienating its support basis). Edited by jamiemartin721 (02 Aug 2014 10.43pm)
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| legaleagle 02 Aug 14 10.50pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 02 Aug 2014 10.30pm
Quote Jimenez at 02 Aug 2014 8.06pm
Quote reborn at 02 Aug 2014 5.26pm
If anyone doubts the devil exists, look to Isis, pure evil. Strange the world seems much more appalled by the actions of Israel, when Isis massacre every day more Muslims than Israel has in the whole of this offensive. Eloquently put old boy.... Yeah but we don't sell weapons to ISIS or regard them as a soverign nation under UN obligations etc. They're just a bunch of terrorists. Plus its hard to get reporters into the ISIS areas, what with the danger and all that. Where as Israel is pretty safe. . Edited by legaleagle (02 Aug 2014 10.59pm)
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| Stirlingsays 02 Aug 14 10.51pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 02 Aug 2014 10.40pm
It manages to work quite well on a daily basis with the Palestinian Authority, which is also under Hamas. The problem is that Hamas is essentially three movements that are independent: The Militant wing, Al-Qassam Brigades, are independently financed and led from the political wing. So whilst they're a part of Hamas, they're also independent. The relationship between them is more akin to that of Sinn Fein and the IRA. Both have a similar cause, and influence on each other, but ultimately they're incapable of dictating policy for one another. Its further complicated in that the Palestinian Authority has neither the infrastructure, resources or equipment to clamp down on the Al-Qassam Brigades even if it wanted to as the PA Police and Military capacity is barely existent (and no match militarily for the Al-Qassam Brigades and related militant groups in Gaza anyhow). Realistically, any peaceful settlement would almost certainly require Israel accepting the 1967 Borders (that's about as far as Hamas more forward thinking can probably drag its militant members, without alienating its support basis). Edited by jamiemartin721 (02 Aug 2014 10.43pm)
They would firstly have to alter their constitution and recognise Israel. For Israel's part a Palestinian state with a military that wasn't dependent upon them......Well, I don't see the advantage for them. What do they gain? The possibility of peace rather than the realistic expectation of it? More risk than reward. No....I can't see a peace with Hamas's militants holding power.....Israel are quite content to carry on with continual war. As far as I can see so are Hamas. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Aug 2014 10.53pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Aug 14 4.03pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 02 Aug 2014 10.51pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 02 Aug 2014 10.40pm
It manages to work quite well on a daily basis with the Palestinian Authority, which is also under Hamas. The problem is that Hamas is essentially three movements that are independent: The Militant wing, Al-Qassam Brigades, are independently financed and led from the political wing. So whilst they're a part of Hamas, they're also independent. The relationship between them is more akin to that of Sinn Fein and the IRA. Both have a similar cause, and influence on each other, but ultimately they're incapable of dictating policy for one another. Its further complicated in that the Palestinian Authority has neither the infrastructure, resources or equipment to clamp down on the Al-Qassam Brigades even if it wanted to as the PA Police and Military capacity is barely existent (and no match militarily for the Al-Qassam Brigades and related militant groups in Gaza anyhow). Realistically, any peaceful settlement would almost certainly require Israel accepting the 1967 Borders (that's about as far as Hamas more forward thinking can probably drag its militant members, without alienating its support basis). Edited by jamiemartin721 (02 Aug 2014 10.43pm)
They would firstly have to alter their constitution and recognise Israel. For Israel's part a Palestinian state with a military that wasn't dependent upon them......Well, I don't see the advantage for them. What do they gain? The possibility of peace rather than the realistic expectation of it? More risk than reward. No....I can't see a peace with Hamas's militants holding power.....Israel are quite content to carry on with continual war. As far as I can see so are Hamas. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Aug 2014 10.53pm) Khaled Mashal said that in 2009, that Hamas would be willing to accept a resolution of the arab-israeli conflict that included the 1967 borders, the right to return for exiles and east Jerusalem as the Palestinian Capital. He's the leader of the Hamas political wing. Hamas isn't one organism with one mind, its a collective body of factions, like any political group. The IRA and Sinn Fein managed to sell a peace process to the majority of the Republicans that didn't have a British withdrawl and Irish unification - Despite that being a one time IRA red line. Of course his deputy, in 2014, stated that Hamas will never recognise Israel. But that doesn't mean that Hamas would necessarily continue an armed struggle either (not recognising Israel isn't the same as attacking them). Problem is there wasn't a 'viable peace' either with Hamas's rivals, Fatah when they were in charge or with the PLO, PFLP. The problem of violence is always going to be an issue in Israeli-Palestinian relationship. In terms of an effective Palestine Security force, its one of the constant demands of Israel is that the PA control militant factions (which is why the PA gets bombed in response to terrorist attacks). But the PA has neither the infrastructure or security resources to control Gaza anyhow, so they couldn't control the militant factions if they wanted to. Indeed the Militant factions tend to settle their disputes between themselves. I tend to agree with you. The Al-Qassam brigades are a major political faction in Hamas, and their leadership and existence is necessarily dependent on the continuation of the conflict with Israel and that Israel's political leadership are also dependent on the continued conflict to remain in power. I wouldn't rule Hamas out entirely of a peace settlement, the Welfare and Political Councils could certainly survive and prosper without the conflict. The sticking point is always going to be Al-Qassam for whom the conflict is central to their political existence. (Not to mention the fact that Gaza is full of different groups and factions, that get termed Hamas by a lazy western media).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Aug 14 4.14pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 02 Aug 2014 10.51pm
For Israel's part a Palestinian state with a military that wasn't dependent upon them......Well, I don't see the advantage for them. True, but a state that cannot monopolise the authority on the use of force is not a state. Its the one principle that binds all states, the capacity to justify the use of force. The situation in the PA is akin to Northern Ireland in the 70s and 80s, without British Troops - The RUC and UDR alone could not have suppressed the PIRA, INLA, UVF from operating openly. The Authority has no capacity to exert its authority. Quote Stirlingsays at 02 Aug 2014 10.51pm
What do they gain? The possibility of peace rather than the realistic expectation of it? More risk than reward. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Aug 2014 10.53pm) Historically, the sticking point has largely be the Israeli reluctance to negotiate a decent deal for the Palestinian Authority. Palestine really represents no real risk to Israeli existence, even the militant factions of Hamas have a very limited capacity to harm Israeli citizens. The level of casualties is so radically disproportionate to the degree that Israel is almost untouched by comparison. In terms of capacity militarily, there is no conceivable point at which the Palestine Authority could ever muster sufficient force of arms that it could hope to significantly damage Israel. But invariably no peace process would be possible without the elimination of the kind of indiscriminate, disproportionate retaliations (and sometimes provocations) utilised by Israeli forces.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Seth  On a pale blue dot 03 Aug 14 4.39pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 02 Aug 2014 10.40pm
Its further complicated in that the Palestinian Authority has neither the infrastructure, resources or equipment to clamp down on the Al-Qassam Brigades even if it wanted to as the PA Police and Military capacity is barely existent (and no match militarily for the Al-Qassam Brigades and related militant groups in Gaza anyhow).
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Aug 14 5.23pm |
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Quote Seth at 03 Aug 2014 4.39pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 02 Aug 2014 10.40pm
Its further complicated in that the Palestinian Authority has neither the infrastructure, resources or equipment to clamp down on the Al-Qassam Brigades even if it wanted to as the PA Police and Military capacity is barely existent (and no match militarily for the Al-Qassam Brigades and related militant groups in Gaza anyhow).
Quite right, they need to be able to blame the state, in order to 'take action', but the states capacity to exert internal authority is almost non-existant. Ideally, Israel would want an independent Palestine that's dependent on Israel for security. Problem is, after 30-40 years, no one in Palestine wants that.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Aug 14 5.37pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Aug 2014 4.03pm
Khaled Mashal said that in 2009, that Hamas would be willing to accept a resolution of the arab-israeli conflict that included the 1967 borders, the right to return for exiles and east Jerusalem as the Palestinian Capital. He's the leader of the Hamas political wing. Hamas isn't one organism with one mind, its a collective body of factions, like any political group. The IRA and Sinn Fein managed to sell a peace process to the majority of the Republicans that didn't have a British withdrawl and Irish unification - Despite that being a one time IRA red line. Of course his deputy, in 2014, stated that Hamas will never recognise Israel. But that doesn't mean that Hamas would necessarily continue an armed struggle either (not recognising Israel isn't the same as attacking them). Problem is there wasn't a 'viable peace' either with Hamas's rivals, Fatah when they were in charge or with the PLO, PFLP. The problem of violence is always going to be an issue in Israeli-Palestinian relationship. In terms of an effective Palestine Security force, its one of the constant demands of Israel is that the PA control militant factions (which is why the PA gets bombed in response to terrorist attacks). But the PA has neither the infrastructure or security resources to control Gaza anyhow, so they couldn't control the militant factions if they wanted to. Indeed the Militant factions tend to settle their disputes between themselves. I tend to agree with you. The Al-Qassam brigades are a major political faction in Hamas, and their leadership and existence is necessarily dependent on the continuation of the conflict with Israel and that Israel's political leadership are also dependent on the continued conflict to remain in power. I wouldn't rule Hamas out entirely of a peace settlement, the Welfare and Political Councils could certainly survive and prosper without the conflict. The sticking point is always going to be Al-Qassam for whom the conflict is central to their political existence. (Not to mention the fact that Gaza is full of different groups and factions, that get termed Hamas by a lazy western media).
I agree with you that Hamas....like pretty much all political entities doesn't just have one voice and are a mixture of groups. However they do have that defining element of their charter and that as it stands states quite clearly that peace processes are just a means to an end. There is no downside for them to lie to the Jews or the west. I can't quite agree that a Palestinian state controlling its own affairs with a military is no added threat to Israel. It could quite easily be built up as a proxy by other Arab states to be a later staging post. Hamas is a proxy now...it's the blockage keeps them far weaker than they could be. For me personally I would only expect the Jews to seriously countenance peace with a Hamas that had recognised it and had changed its charter. Japan and German were operational states for decades with very little military......I think the UN being based there would help in that regard.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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