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Can we adopt our 1861 date of birth?
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 Palace_Guard  Kyiv 23 Apr 20 5.29pm |
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reading this thread is like watching a crime investigation series which included one of your loved ones! really fascinating stuff! The video the club put on youTube is very well done and provides lots of little bits of evidence that has very much convinced me! I hope opening it up to the public now, we will get even more information and evidence to back this theory up. It seemed that there a gap where the club did not play football was quite common during those times, to save the cricket pitch, because of finances, not history found because there weren't many games played....it doesn not mean the club officially folded.
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jeeagles  24 Apr 20 9.49am |
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Originally posted by Palace_Guard
reading this thread is like watching a crime investigation series which included one of your loved ones! really fascinating stuff! The video the club put on youTube is very well done and provides lots of little bits of evidence that has very much convinced me! I hope opening it up to the public now, we will get even more information and evidence to back this theory up. It seemed that there a gap where the club did not play football was quite common during those times, to save the cricket pitch, because of finances, not history found because there weren't many games played....it doesn not mean the club officially folded. Are you saying that the burden of proof should be on others now to prove the club folded and didn't play any games? Just because there is no record of matches in that 20 year period doesnt mean they didn't happen. It could be argued that continuity should be assumed unless there is an official record in Crystal Palace company records, players diarys, newspapers that say CPFC 1861 officially cease to exist in around 1885. Or a official record from around 1905 which says that the team which applied to join the league then was categorically a different entity. Our former tennents AFC Wimbledon or MK Dons may have an interest in this story as they have a despute over who the clubs history belongs to. There's probably other teams with claims that could rival Sheffield FC and Notts County. The Royal Engineers and Civil Service clubs both claim to be founded in 1863, but probably existed in some form before that. It's a tenuous claim, but no one can claim that a Crystal Palace team didn't exist in 1861, and no one can prove there is not a direct link between the team that entered the league in 1905.... this could go on for years. Great lockdown story.
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PalazioVecchio  south pole 24 Apr 20 11.14am |
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A team with a link to the big glass building in upper norwood. That is us and them. Like in "who do you think you are" the links are often tenuous but the continuity is there. Publish the date on the scarves and the nay-sayers can be damned.
Kayla did Anfield & Old Trafford |
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stujii  24 Apr 20 12.50pm |
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Originally posted by jeeagles
Are you saying that the burden of proof should be on others now to prove the club folded and didn't play any games? Just because there is no record of matches in that 20 year period doesnt mean they didn't happen. It could be argued that continuity should be assumed unless there is an official record in Crystal Palace company records, players diarys, newspapers that say CPFC 1861 officially cease to exist in around 1885. Or a official record from around 1905 which says that the team which applied to join the league then was categorically a different entity. Our former tennents AFC Wimbledon or MK Dons may have an interest in this story as they have a despute over who the clubs history belongs to. There's probably other teams with claims that could rival Sheffield FC and Notts County. The Royal Engineers and Civil Service clubs both claim to be founded in 1863, but probably existed in some form before that. It's a tenuous claim, but no one can claim that a Crystal Palace team didn't exist in 1861, and no one can prove there is not a direct link between the team that entered the league in 1905.... this could go on for years. Great lockdown story. AFC Wimbledon have already officially been granted the history of Wimbledon FC/ MKDons. They have far less claim then us and a precedent has now been set with this case Totally agree the burden of proof should now be on the nay sayers
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 24 Apr 20 12.56pm |
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Originally posted by kenbarr
This post has been merged from a topic called 'Palace 1861 ?!' by bexleydave My question is if the Crystal Palace Company was the majority shareholder why didn't the club return to the Crystal Palace football ground when World War I was over? Did the Admiralty retain it for a period or did they leave when the war ended or shortly after? Two reasons apparently... According to fang on the BBS: "The place was a complete mess. The top site had been used as a tip for bomb rubble from across SE London. The terraces had been used as a vehicle store and there was a large vehicle maintenance depot inside what is now the NSC foot print. Other parts of the park had been given over to allotments, including the cricket pitch and a radar assembly plant.There were also questions about who actually owned the Park at this point." Also, Croydon Common were big rivals at the time, so Palace moved into their ground The Nest after they went bust in WW2 in case they re-formed while taking their fan base also. Ruthless. Edited by Penge Eagle (24 Apr 2020 1.07pm)
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 24 Apr 20 1.04pm |
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Originally posted by jeeagles
Just because there is no record of matches in that 20 year period doesnt mean they didn't happen. Matches were recorded in the local newspapers up till 1876. So if they did happen afterwards, then why would the press stop reporting on them? A couple of Palace's England internationals' (Savage, Smith) last and only caps came in 1876. So either they kept playing for Palace and weren't good enough, moved to another club and not selected or gave up playing entirely like when the team disbanded... Edited by Penge Eagle (24 Apr 2020 1.04pm)
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| chris123 hove actually 24 Apr 20 1.25pm |
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Originally posted by jeeagles
Are you saying that the burden of proof should be on others now to prove the club folded and didn't play any games? Just because there is no record of matches in that 20 year period doesnt mean they didn't happen. It could be argued that continuity should be assumed unless there is an official record in Crystal Palace company records, players diarys, newspapers that say CPFC 1861 officially cease to exist in around 1885. Or a official record from around 1905 which says that the team which applied to join the league then was categorically a different entity. Our former tennents AFC Wimbledon or MK Dons may have an interest in this story as they have a despute over who the clubs history belongs to. There's probably other teams with claims that could rival Sheffield FC and Notts County. The Royal Engineers and Civil Service clubs both claim to be founded in 1863, but probably existed in some form before that. It's a tenuous claim, but no one can claim that a Crystal Palace team didn't exist in 1861, and no one can prove there is not a direct link between the team that entered the league in 1905.... this could go on for years. Great lockdown story. Well because if you want to seriously claim something like this it needs to be supported by contemporary evidence, surely?
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| gazNgiz 25 Apr 20 11.39pm |
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The op says "our", so therefore the op already has. (Our clubs older than your club is as embarrassing as my dads bigger than your dad) Edit.... I like Parish and everything he (and our other investors) have done for our club, but at the end of the day he is a business man and this has become his business, so dam right he's promoting this sh!te. It's almost 100% new merch for the club to sell £££'s Edited by gazNgiz (25 Apr 2020 11.53pm)
I'm a little bit backwards |
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kiteagles  Melbourne 26 Apr 20 12.42am |
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We have the oldest manager in the Premier League and the oldest first team squad, only right we should be the oldest club as well. I've been shaking my head and saying "Same old Palace" for nearly 70 years - looks like I was right.
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| YT Oxford 26 Apr 20 7.13am |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Two reasons apparently... According to fang on the BBS: "The place was a complete mess. The top site had been used as a tip for bomb rubble from across SE London. The terraces had been used as a vehicle store and there was a large vehicle maintenance depot inside what is now the NSC foot print. Other parts of the park had been given over to allotments, including the cricket pitch and a radar assembly plant.There were also questions about who actually owned the Park at this point." Also, Croydon Common were big rivals at the time, so Palace moved into their ground The Nest after they went bust in WW2 in case they re-formed while taking their fan base also. Ruthless. Edited by Penge Eagle (24 Apr 2020 1.07pm)
Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes) |
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kenbarr  Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 07 Jun 21 5.56am |
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After watching When Eagles Dare, which made a brief reference to Palace claiming to be one of the oldest clubs in the world, I found an American sports precedent for our claim. The oldest professional baseball team is the Cincinnati Reds, founded in 1869 as the Red Stockings. This club went bust in 1870 & in 1871, a new Red Stockings team was founded in Boston (they eventually became the Braves). In 1876, the National League of Professional Baseball Clubs (todays N.L.) was formed & a new Cincinnati Red Stockings under the same ownership as the old was admitted. This forced Boston to change its name to the Red Caps. Even though Cincinnati’s team stopped play & then restarted some years later, they retained rights to the nickname and the 1869 foundation date. I realize these are different countries but wouldn’t the same principles apply given both the amateur & professional clubs were owned & operated by the Crystal Palace Company?
Divorced...And LOVING it! |
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| kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 07 Jun 21 7.10am |
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After watching When Eagles Dare, which made a brief reference to Palace claiming to be one of the oldest clubs in the world, I found an American sports precedent for our claim. The oldest professional baseball team is the Cincinnati Reds, founded in 1869 as the Red Stockings. This club went bust in 1870 & in 1871, a new Red Stockings team was founded in Boston (they eventually became the Braves). In 1876, the National League of Professional Baseball Clubs (todays N.L.) was formed & a new Cincinnati Red Stockings under the same ownership as the old was admitted. This forced Boston to change its name to the Red Caps. Even though Cincinnati’s team stopped play & then restarted some years later, they retained rights to the nickname and the 1869 foundation date. I realize these are different countries but wouldn’t the same principles apply given both the amateur & professional clubs were owned & operated by the Crystal Palace Company?
Divorced...And LOVING it! |
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