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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 02 Mar 22 11.13pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Does any of that matter? The countless millions who died in Russia, China, Eastern Europe, Africa, North Korea, etc won’t have gained much comfort by knowing they weren’t killed by a right-wing Government. Many were, of course, but you are correct in that none of this matters, especially at the moment. There are though a few who continue to apologise for Putin and even seem to admire his machismo character. Attempting to understand what drives him, and why some support him, might not change anything in this war, but it could change us and how we prepare for an uncertain future.
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| Grumbles 02 Mar 22 11.16pm |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
Could be right, could be old.... but it could be a "best possible path" where they linked up with existing troops [14th army group] in the "Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic".
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Mar 22 11.46pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I don't want to sidetrack down a long path of he said/she said. The only thing we agree on is on how people like to reframe...oh yes, they certainly do and it's usually in line with an agenda. I'll end with the fact that Hitler, the most known fascist for example, literally said, 'I am a socialist' and the Nazis (not a name they used) were literally called 'National Socialists'. I agree that this is a sidetrack at the moment, but as it is, pretty unambiguously, also wrong, I will just add this. I suggest the link I provided is read, to put the above in its context. This extract sums it up, and shows the above to be misleading, and exactly what I said it is. A myth spread by the right to avoid guilt by association:- "Hitler called his political party "National Socialist", but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism", saying that "Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not". At a later time, Hitler said: "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether. What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism". He also expressed a wish that he had called his party "social revolutionary" instead.
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| Stirlingsays 02 Mar 22 11.56pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I agree that this is a sidetrack at the moment, but as it is, pretty unambiguously, also wrong, I will just add this. I suggest the link I provided is read, to put the above in its context. This extract sums it up, and shows the above to be misleading, and exactly what I said it is. A myth spread by the right to avoid guilt by association:- "Hitler called his political party "National Socialist", but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism", saying that "Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not". At a later time, Hitler said: "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether. What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism". He also expressed a wish that he had called his party "social revolutionary" instead. It's not wrong at all....these are agendas and reframes. Nothing Hitler says there goes against socialism and its aims could precisely be called social revolution...both fascism and communism share that same goal....there are obviously differences but one is blood and soil while the other is class war. What I will agree with is that the socialism of 1920s-30s Germany isn't the same socialism of modern times....just as the capitalism isn't the same.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Teddy Eagle  02 Mar 22 11.59pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I agree that this is a sidetrack at the moment, but as it is, pretty unambiguously, also wrong, I will just add this. I suggest the link I provided is read, to put the above in its context. This extract sums it up, and shows the above to be misleading, and exactly what I said it is. A myth spread by the right to avoid guilt by association:- "Hitler called his political party "National Socialist", but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism", saying that "Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not". At a later time, Hitler said: "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether. What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism". He also expressed a wish that he had called his party "social revolutionary" instead. As usual opinions differ.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 03 Mar 22 12.05am |
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Just watched John Simpson on BBC2 talking to a number of the BBC correspondents. A number of interesting ideas that I hadn't heard before. Both regard who could broker a settlement. First was China, who have begun to put some distance between themselves and Putin. They have the muscle to influence him. Second is Finland who have been under Russian occupation in the past and ceded territory in a settlement.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 03 Mar 22 12.20am |
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Of course, they do. Having just read the author of that piece, George Watson's, entry on Wiki it seems he held a number of, putting politely, weird views, which were rubbished by others. That Hitler was really a Marxist was one of his enduring ones, which I doubt too many share.
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| Stirlingsays 03 Mar 22 12.27am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Of course, they do. Having just read the author of that piece, George Watson's, entry on Wiki it seems he held a number of, putting politely, weird views, which were rubbished by others. That Hitler was really a Marxist was one of his enduring ones, which I doubt too many share. You see, if we look into the background of those whose views you support we could no doubt find that they are centralists or leftists . What matters is what the analysis is.....is it actually trying to find the truth of a matter over trying to win some cultural point. Anyway, lets leave Hitler in the past. He was prepared to murder tens of millions and god knows we want a world different from that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matthau South Croydon 03 Mar 22 12.33am |
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These moment men, all in it together.
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Attachment: | Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 03 Mar 22 12.34am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's not wrong at all....these are agendas and reframes. Nothing Hitler says there goes against socialism and its aims could precisely be called social revolution...both fascism and communism share that same goal....there are obviously differences but one is blood and soil while the other is class war. What I will agree with is that the socialism of 1920s-30s Germany isn't the same socialism of modern times....just as the capitalism isn't the same. If someone says "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word" I think it's reasonable to deduce they don't want to be associated with it. I'll leave it there.
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| matthau South Croydon 03 Mar 22 12.34am |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Mar 22 12.51am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
If someone says "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word" I think it's reasonable to deduce they don't want to be associated with it. I'll leave it there. The problem with relying upon quote picking as a definite commentary is that it's pretty poor without context. As I stated Hitler at some time calls himself a socialist and at a later point feels uncomfortable with it....Personally I think he was for what worked to get him his aims. I can quote both Cameron and Merkel both saying multiculturalism had failed....but what were their actions. Obama and Clinton were against gay marriage and can be quoted as such. What is important is what they actually did...Commitment to a concept can be purely related to how popular it is viewed......quote picking doesn't work over proper analysis of what actually happened. People lie....people say what they think their peers want to here. Actions lie far less. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Mar 2022 12.55am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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