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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 01 Aug 14 12.34pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am That's one of those obvious facts that turns out to be completely wrong. A bloodless victory is the aim of every properly trained and led military. The preservation of life is the reason for the existance of National Armed Forces. This alone is reason enough to brand Israel as a Terrorist State. Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am) Man alive....I've read it all now. In all fairness to you both, how this works on the ground is that each military force has what are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Failure to follow those rules of engagement can mean a soldier can face charges (but not necessarily). In NI, for example, British soldiers would carry their Rules of Engagement booklet with them. It is only maybe three pages long. It states that civilians must be challenged first and also states what constitutes a risk to life that allows a soldier to use their weapon to defend themselves. There are Rules of Engagement for Afghanistan and Iraq, as far as I know. As far as I am aware most militarys have this system, or something similar. I expect the Isrealis have some type of Rules of Engagement in Gaza that is designed to protect civilians. Whether it is being enforced or not is another question. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 01 Aug 14 12.34pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am

That's one of those obvious facts that turns out to be completely wrong. A bloodless victory is the aim of every properly trained and led military. The preservation of life is the reason for the existance of National Armed Forces.
This alone is reason enough to brand Israel as a Terrorist State.

Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am)

Man alive....I've read it all now.

In all fairness to you both, how this works on the ground is that each military force has what are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Failure to follow those rules of engagement can mean a soldier can face charges (but not necessarily). In NI, for example, British soldiers would carry their Rules of Engagement booklet with them. It is only maybe three pages long. It states that civilians must be challenged first and also states what constitutes a risk to life that allows a soldier to use their weapon to defend themselves. There are Rules of Engagement for Afghanistan and Iraq, as far as I know.
As far as I am aware most militarys have this system, or something similar.
I expect the Isrealis have some type of Rules of Engagement in Gaza that is designed to protect civilians. Whether it is being enforced or not is another question.

Red and Blue Army!

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Stirlingsays 01 Aug 14 12.55pm
Quote ASCPFC at 01 Aug 2014 12.34pm Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am That's one of those obvious facts that turns out to be completely wrong. A bloodless victory is the aim of every properly trained and led military. The preservation of life is the reason for the existance of National Armed Forces. This alone is reason enough to brand Israel as a Terrorist State. Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am) Man alive....I've read it all now. In all fairness to you both, how this works on the ground is that each military force has what are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Failure to follow those rules of engagement can mean a soldier can face charges (but not necessarily). In NI, for example, British soldiers would carry their Rules of Engagement booklet with them. It is only maybe three pages long. It states that civilians must be challenged first and also states what constitutes a risk to life that allows a soldier to use their weapon to defend themselves. There are Rules of Engagement for Afghanistan and Iraq, as far as I know. As far as I am aware most militarys have this system, or something similar. I expect the Isrealis have some type of Rules of Engagement in Gaza that is designed to protect civilians. Whether it is being enforced or not is another question. I suspect that in Gaza the enforcement is patchy depending upon the unit. The IDF does prosecute though it is lenient....As all armies are upon themselves.....Still sometimes it is too lenient even for me. There are definite, 'if it moves shoot' instructions on the front line.....But to be honest that's true for most front lines. It shouldn't be that way away from a battle situation. It isn't fair or accurate for some to mention words like genocide or to suggest that the IDF are looking to kill Palestinians wherever they find them. The IDF could easily kill thousands upon thousands of Palestinians in one day if they wished. It must be remembered that three quarters of Gazans are still living in their homes. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Aug 14 12.55pm

Quote ASCPFC at 01 Aug 2014 12.34pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am

Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am)

Man alive....I've read it all now.

I suspect that in Gaza the enforcement is patchy depending upon the unit. The IDF does prosecute though it is lenient....As all armies are upon themselves.....Still sometimes it is too lenient even for me.

There are definite, 'if it moves shoot' instructions on the front line.....But to be honest that's true for most front lines. It shouldn't be that way away from a battle situation.

It isn't fair or accurate for some to mention words like genocide or to suggest that the IDF are looking to kill Palestinians wherever they find them. The IDF could easily kill thousands upon thousands of Palestinians in one day if they wished.

It must be remembered that three quarters of Gazans are still living in their homes.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 01 Aug 14 1.03pm
Landing artillery fire on a UN school ? WTF even Stirling can't defend that. Or can he ? Edited by dannyh (01 Aug 2014 1.04pm) "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 01 Aug 14 1.03pm

Landing artillery fire on a UN school ? WTF even Stirling can't defend that. Or can he ?

Edited by dannyh (01 Aug 2014 1.04pm)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 01 Aug 14 1.05pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 12.55pm Quote ASCPFC at 01 Aug 2014 12.34pm Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am That's one of those obvious facts that turns out to be completely wrong. A bloodless victory is the aim of every properly trained and led military. The preservation of life is the reason for the existance of National Armed Forces. This alone is reason enough to brand Israel as a Terrorist State. Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am) Man alive....I've read it all now. In all fairness to you both, how this works on the ground is that each military force has what are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Failure to follow those rules of engagement can mean a soldier can face charges (but not necessarily). In NI, for example, British soldiers would carry their Rules of Engagement booklet with them. It is only maybe three pages long. It states that civilians must be challenged first and also states what constitutes a risk to life that allows a soldier to use their weapon to defend themselves. There are Rules of Engagement for Afghanistan and Iraq, as far as I know. As far as I am aware most militarys have this system, or something similar. I expect the Isrealis have some type of Rules of Engagement in Gaza that is designed to protect civilians. Whether it is being enforced or not is another question. I suspect that in Gaza the enforcement is patchy depending upon the unit. The IDF does prosecute though it is lenient....As all armies are upon themselves.....Still sometimes it is too lenient even for me. There are definite, 'if it moves shoot' instructions on the front line.....But to be honest that's true for most front lines. It shouldn't be that way away from a battle situation. It isn't fair or accurate for some to mention words like genocide or to suggest that the IDF are looking to kill Palestinians wherever they find them. The IDF could easily kill thousands upon thousands of Palestinians in one day if they wished. It must be remembered that three quarters of Gazans are still living in their homes. Out of interest, to this last point, have they people of the Gaza Strip genuinely got anywhere else to go? I remember there used to be quite a few refugee camps on the border there and one quite big one, I can't remember its name. It used to be reported on quite a lot but haven't heard anything about the camps this time - only the UN schools. I'm not saying there aren't camps - I just wondered if anyone could shed any light on this? Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 01 Aug 14 1.05pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 12.55pm

Quote ASCPFC at 01 Aug 2014 12.34pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am

Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am)

Man alive....I've read it all now.

There are definite, 'if it moves shoot' instructions on the front line.....But to be honest that's true for most front lines. It shouldn't be that way away from a battle situation.

It must be remembered that three quarters of Gazans are still living in their homes.

Out of interest, to this last point, have they people of the Gaza Strip genuinely got anywhere else to go? I remember there used to be quite a few refugee camps on the border there and one quite big one, I can't remember its name. It used to be reported on quite a lot but haven't heard anything about the camps this time - only the UN schools. I'm not saying there aren't camps - I just wondered if anyone could shed any light on this?

Red and Blue Army!

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Kermit8 Hevon 01 Aug 14 1.24pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 12.55pm Quote ASCPFC at 01 Aug 2014 12.34pm Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am That's one of those obvious facts that turns out to be completely wrong. A bloodless victory is the aim of every properly trained and led military. The preservation of life is the reason for the existance of National Armed Forces. This alone is reason enough to brand Israel as a Terrorist State. Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am) Man alive....I've read it all now. In all fairness to you both, how this works on the ground is that each military force has what are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Failure to follow those rules of engagement can mean a soldier can face charges (but not necessarily). In NI, for example, British soldiers would carry their Rules of Engagement booklet with them. It is only maybe three pages long. It states that civilians must be challenged first and also states what constitutes a risk to life that allows a soldier to use their weapon to defend themselves. There are Rules of Engagement for Afghanistan and Iraq, as far as I know. As far as I am aware most militarys have this system, or something similar. I expect the Isrealis have some type of Rules of Engagement in Gaza that is designed to protect civilians. Whether it is being enforced or not is another question. I suspect that in Gaza the enforcement is patchy depending upon the unit. The IDF does prosecute though it is lenient....As all armies are upon themselves.....Still sometimes it is too lenient even for me. There are definite, 'if it moves shoot' instructions on the front line.....But to be honest that's true for most front lines. It shouldn't be that way away from a battle situation. It isn't fair or accurate for some to mention words like genocide or to suggest that the IDF are looking to kill Palestinians wherever they find them. The IDF could easily kill thousands upon thousands of Palestinians in one day if they wished. It must be remembered that three quarters of Gazans are still living in their homes. Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets. 80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes. Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this? Some of the stuff you come out with. Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm) Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 01 Aug 14 1.24pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 12.55pm

Quote ASCPFC at 01 Aug 2014 12.34pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.32am

Quote Red-Blue-Yellow at 01 Aug 2014 12.53am

Edited by Red-Blue-Yellow (01 Aug 2014 12.55am)

Man alive....I've read it all now.

There are definite, 'if it moves shoot' instructions on the front line.....But to be honest that's true for most front lines. It shouldn't be that way away from a battle situation.

It must be remembered that three quarters of Gazans are still living in their homes.

Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets.

80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes.

Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this?

Some of the stuff you come out with.

Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm)

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 01 Aug 14 1.35pm
Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.24pm Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets. 80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes. Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this? Some of the stuff you come out with. Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm) They are mostly living in their own homes. You are talking about 47/48.....Which is at least 66/67 years ago (outside of recent west bank displacements). Do you own the home that your family lived in 67 years ago? The population from that time would...at the very least be in their eighties who could claim ownership....In a Gaza population which is hugely populated by younger inhabitants. I can't imagine many people alive in Gaza today who hold deeds to those original properties. I say this to counter the silly emotionalism of your point with rationalism....I don't seek to deny the injustice of what happened in 47/48. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 1.43pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Aug 14 1.35pm

Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.24pm

Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets.

80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes.

Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this?

Some of the stuff you come out with.

Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm)

They are mostly living in their own homes. You are talking about 47/48.....Which is at least 66/67 years ago (outside of recent west bank displacements). Do you own the home that your family lived in 67 years ago?

The population from that time would...at the very least be in their eighties who could claim ownership....In a Gaza population which is hugely populated by younger inhabitants.

I can't imagine many people alive in Gaza today who hold deeds to those original properties.

I say this to counter the silly emotionalism of your point with rationalism....I don't seek to deny the injustice of what happened in 47/48.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 1.43pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 01 Aug 14 1.50pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.35pm Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.24pm Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets. 80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes. Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this? Some of the stuff you come out with. Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm) They are mostly living in their own homes. You are talking about 47/48.....Which is at least 67 years ago. Do you own the home that your family lived in 67 years ago? The population from that time would...at the very least be in their eighties....In a Gaza population which is hugely populated by younger inhabitants. I can't imagine many people alive in Gaza today who hold deeds to those original properties. I say this to counter the silly emotionalism of your point with rationalism....I don't seek to deny the injustice of what happened in 47/48. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 1.35pm) Hmmm..you are parroting how the US senate sees it - 'Only those alive in 1947/48 and their families are classed as refugees. 30,000 in the West Bank and Gaza.' UN disagrees. Their total is 2million - Children born in refugee camps/under occupation and grow up in those same camps and then have kids of their own are too refugees. Which classification is fairer do you think? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 01 Aug 14 1.50pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.35pm

Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.24pm

Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets.

80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes.

Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this?

Some of the stuff you come out with.

Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm)

They are mostly living in their own homes. You are talking about 47/48.....Which is at least 67 years ago. Do you own the home that your family lived in 67 years ago?

The population from that time would...at the very least be in their eighties....In a Gaza population which is hugely populated by younger inhabitants.

I can't imagine many people alive in Gaza today who hold deeds to those original properties.

I say this to counter the silly emotionalism of your point with rationalism....I don't seek to deny the injustice of what happened in 47/48.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 1.35pm)

Hmmm..you are parroting how the US senate sees it -

'Only those alive in 1947/48 and their families are classed as refugees. 30,000 in the West Bank and Gaza.'

UN disagrees. Their total is 2million - Children born in refugee camps/under occupation and grow up in those same camps and then have kids of their own are too refugees.

Which classification is fairer do you think?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 01 Aug 14 2.04pm
Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.50pm Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.35pm Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.24pm Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets. 80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes. Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this? Some of the stuff you come out with. Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm) They are mostly living in their own homes. You are talking about 47/48.....Which is at least 67 years ago. Do you own the home that your family lived in 67 years ago? The population from that time would...at the very least be in their eighties....In a Gaza population which is hugely populated by younger inhabitants. I can't imagine many people alive in Gaza today who hold deeds to those original properties. I say this to counter the silly emotionalism of your point with rationalism....I don't seek to deny the injustice of what happened in 47/48. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 1.35pm) Hmmm..you are parroting how the US senate sees it - 'Only those alive in 1947/48 and their families are classed as refugees. 30,000 in the West Bank and Gaza.' UN disagrees. Their total is 2million - Children born in refugee camps/under occupation and grow up in those same camps and then have kids of their own are too refugees. Which classification is fairer do you think? It is a very tricky question....the right of return....There is no real justice here but sticking plaster. I don't claim to have the 'right' answer to it....I don't really know if there is one. To an extent whether someone has the 'right' of return depends upon the borders of a two state solution....Something along the 67 borders is possible. If it were my decision I would ensure compensation for those affected still alive from 47/48. I would allow the right of return in the west bank areas cleared of settlers......Though the longer this doesn't happen the harder this becomes. I can't imagine Israel giving over compensation that they would think would go into weapons to harm them in a future war......So whatever two state solution it would have to have a demilitarized element to it. The 'right of return' element is hugely difficult if we accept the right of Israel to exist. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 2.07pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Aug 14 2.04pm

Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.50pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 1.35pm

Quote Kermit8 at 01 Aug 2014 1.24pm

Lucky them. They probably can't hear the assaults and mortar rounds and rockets.

80% of Gazans are displaced refugees and their children from way back. They are most certainly not living in their homes.

Are you getting paid via Tel Aviv for this?

Some of the stuff you come out with.

Edited by Kermit8 (01 Aug 2014 1.28pm)

They are mostly living in their own homes. You are talking about 47/48.....Which is at least 67 years ago. Do you own the home that your family lived in 67 years ago?

The population from that time would...at the very least be in their eighties....In a Gaza population which is hugely populated by younger inhabitants.

I can't imagine many people alive in Gaza today who hold deeds to those original properties.

I say this to counter the silly emotionalism of your point with rationalism....I don't seek to deny the injustice of what happened in 47/48.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 1.35pm)

Hmmm..you are parroting how the US senate sees it -

'Only those alive in 1947/48 and their families are classed as refugees. 30,000 in the West Bank and Gaza.'

UN disagrees. Their total is 2million - Children born in refugee camps/under occupation and grow up in those same camps and then have kids of their own are too refugees.

Which classification is fairer do you think?

It is a very tricky question....the right of return....There is no real justice here but sticking plaster.

I don't claim to have the 'right' answer to it....I don't really know if there is one.

To an extent whether someone has the 'right' of return depends upon the borders of a two state solution....Something along the 67 borders is possible.

If it were my decision I would ensure compensation for those affected still alive from 47/48.

I would allow the right of return in the west bank areas cleared of settlers......Though the longer this doesn't happen the harder this becomes.

I can't imagine Israel giving over compensation that they would think would go into weapons to harm them in a future war......So whatever two state solution it would have to have a demilitarized element to it.

The 'right of return' element is hugely difficult if we accept the right of Israel to exist.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Aug 2014 2.07pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 01 Aug 14 2.36pm
If the reports are true that Hamas.....using a tunnel....have captured an Israel solider then this will become a disaster upon a disaster. Hamas are ruining their own people. This action, if true, might oversee a huge expansion of this disastrous action. The last captured soldier took a thousand prisoners to release.....The IDF will just scoop up thousands to trade back.....Capturing a soldier is truly pointless. Hamas just don't care. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Aug 14 2.36pm

If the reports are true that Hamas.....using a tunnel....have captured an Israel solider then this will become a disaster upon a disaster.

Hamas are ruining their own people. This action, if true, might oversee a huge expansion of this disastrous action.

The last captured soldier took a thousand prisoners to release.....The IDF will just scoop up thousands to trade back.....Capturing a soldier is truly pointless.

Hamas just don't care.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ghosteagle 01 Aug 14 2.42pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 2.36pm If the reports are true that Hamas.....using a tunnel....have captured an Israel solider then this will become a disaster upon a disaster. Hamas are ruining their own people. This action, if true, might oversee a huge expansion of this disastrous action. The last captured soldier took a thousand prisoners to release.....The IDF will just scoop up thousands to trade back.....Capturing a soldier is truly pointless. Hamas just don't care. The missiles and rockets fired at innocent civilians by Israel are destroying them.
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ghosteagle

01 Aug 14 2.42pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 2.36pm

If the reports are true that Hamas.....using a tunnel....have captured an Israel solider then this will become a disaster upon a disaster.

Hamas are ruining their own people. This action, if true, might oversee a huge expansion of this disastrous action.

The last captured soldier took a thousand prisoners to release.....The IDF will just scoop up thousands to trade back.....Capturing a soldier is truly pointless.

Hamas just don't care.

The missiles and rockets fired at innocent civilians by Israel are destroying them.

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Stirlingsays 01 Aug 14 2.45pm
Quote ghosteagle at 01 Aug 2014 2.42pm The missiles and rockets fired at innocent civilians by Israel are destroying them. Pretty much most of your contributions to this thread sound like the outpourings of a typical Hamas spokesman. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Aug 14 2.45pm

Quote ghosteagle at 01 Aug 2014 2.42pm

The missiles and rockets fired at innocent civilians by Israel are destroying them.

Pretty much most of your contributions to this thread sound like the outpourings of a typical Hamas spokesman.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ghosteagle 01 Aug 14 2.50pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 2.45pm Quote ghosteagle at 01 Aug 2014 2.42pm The missiles and rockets fired at innocent civilians by Israel are destroying them. Pretty much most of your contributions to this thread sound like the outpourings of a typical Hamas spokesman. Attacking the speaker instead of the content. Predictable.
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ghosteagle

01 Aug 14 2.50pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Aug 2014 2.45pm

Quote ghosteagle at 01 Aug 2014 2.42pm

The missiles and rockets fired at innocent civilians by Israel are destroying them.

Pretty much most of your contributions to this thread sound like the outpourings of a typical Hamas spokesman.

Attacking the speaker instead of the content. Predictable.

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