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legaleagle  25 May 14 3.31pm |
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The beauty is that in a democracy we can debate and disagree. So, I can respect we think differently, without needing to suggest you are patronising me or others. Your post is helpful. You lay it on the line. It is not so much immigration and its economic effects per se you object to, but immigrants who are not culturally "like us".
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 Stirlingsays 25 May 14 3.45pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 25 May 2014 3.31pm
The beauty is that in a democracy we can debate and disagree. So, I can respect we think differently, without needing to suggest you are patronising me or others. Your post is helpful. You lay it on the line. It is not so much immigration and its economic effects per se you object to, but immigrants who are not culturally "like us". My first objection is to the scale of the immigration and how it has affected the working classes personally in respect to housing, the required supporting infrastructure and system and perhaps more importantly job competition amongst the working class....The powerless within British society. I don't mind immigration....We as an island are built upon it....It's about numbers and what swamping does to unsuspecting communities. My loyalty is firstly to the vulnerable in the British community....Not people from overseas. I'm not an egalitarian outside of helping where it doesn't adversely my own. I grew up in a council estate in Stockwell in the eighties surrounded by culturally foreign influences....I hated it. As an adult in his late twenties I moved to Wisbech....Only to find the buggers moved there in such numbers in the last ten years that now the town is nicknamed, Wisbekistan. I'll move out when I can....Probably when I finally leave teaching.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| luckybuck 25 May 14 3.57pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 3.45pm
Quote legaleagle at 25 May 2014 3.31pm
The beauty is that in a democracy we can debate and disagree. So, I can respect we think differently, without needing to suggest you are patronising me or others. Your post is helpful. You lay it on the line. It is not so much immigration and its economic effects per se you object to, but immigrants who are not culturally "like us". My first objection is to the scale of the immigration and how it has affected the working classes personally in respect to housing, the required supporting infrastructure and system and perhaps more importantly job competition amongst the working class....The powerless within British society. I don't mind immigration....We as an island are built upon it....It's about numbers and what swamping does to unsuspecting communities. My loyalty is firstly to the vulnerable in the British community....Not people from overseas. I'm not an egalitarian outside of helping where it doesn't adversely my own. I grew up in a council estate in Stockwell in the eighties surrounded by culturally foreign influences....I hated it. As an adult in his late twenties I moved to Wisbech....Only to find the buggers moved there in such numbers in the last ten years that now the town is nicknamed, Wisbekistan. I'll move out when I can....Probably when I finally leave teaching. Of course 'no blacks' signs back in the day were in part born out of the nottion that people had come from an alien culture. Now many have integrated and it would be odd to differentiate based on race alone. I wonder what you'd have represented and stood for had you have been a grown man back then?
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| matt_himself Matataland 25 May 14 3.58pm |
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Quote The White Horse at 25 May 2014 2.46pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 2.29pm
The income group and who you vote for is a stereotype. So like many stereotypes it has some truth to it but its a caricature of the real picture.....So him stating this without caveats just winds people up. It's the most reliable stereotype there is politically, I'd say. Was it Marx who said it originally? Something like "a man's politics is the best reflection of his material circumstances". Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 2.29pm
I would have thought that Livingstone would have kept away from talking about this particular group but.....Then again he's retired now so he probably cares even less than before.....Which while I rarely agree with him is at least refreshing. He made the comments mentioned during his last mayoral campaign over 2 years ago. He made more comments a few weeks ago! Oh dear!
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| legaleagle 25 May 14 4.03pm |
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In the 80's I lived in Kennington....there were some great foreign influences...not least a good Greek Cypriot-run café! Fear of "swamping" due to numbers is exactly what the anti-immigration lobby said about Jews 100 years ago and Commonwealth immigrants in the 1960's/70's... Housing is a big problem. But, I suspect maybe more to do with the long-term effects of the mass sell off of local authority housing in the 1980's,our banks' approach to lending since financial deregulation in the 1980's/90's ,the capital gains tax free house price bonanza since the 1970's,rather than arrivals from E Europe, particularly given the large numbers of Brits who have left the country, EU bound and otherwise (freeing up housing stock)in the past 2 decades
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 4.05pm |
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Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 3.57pm
Of course 'no blacks' signs were in part born out of the fact that people had come from a different culture and were deemed to have nothing in common with us. Now many have integrated and it would be odd to differentiate based on race alone. I wonder what you'd have represented and stood for had you have been a grown man back then? Who knows? We are all products of our influences. I don't object to people based upon their skin colour and never have.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 4.09pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 25 May 2014 4.03pm
In the 80's I lived in Kennington....there were some great foreign influences...not least a good Greek Cypriot-run café! Fear of "swamping" due to numbers is exactly what the anti-immigration lobby said about Jews 100 years ago and Commonwealth immigrants in the 1960's/70's... Housing is a big problem. But, I suspect maybe more to do with the long-term effects of the mass sell off of local authority housing in the 1980's,our banks' approach to lending since financial deregulation in the 1980's/90's ,the capital gains tax free house price bonanza since the 1970's,rather than arrivals from E Europe, particularly given the large numbers of Brits who have left the country, EU bound and otherwise (freeing up housing stock)in the past 2 decades I've already answered most of the points you've written here but you've repeated them. Never mind, as you say, we aren't going to agree. We will see how the chips fall.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| luckybuck 25 May 14 4.09pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 4.05pm
Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 3.57pm
Of course 'no blacks' signs were in part born out of the fact that people had come from a different culture and were deemed to have nothing in common with us. Now many have integrated and it would be odd to differentiate based on race alone. I wonder what you'd have represented and stood for had you have been a grown man back then? Who knows? We are all products of our influences. I don't object to people based upon their skin colour and never have. For many black people to become part of our culture to begin with, they would've gone through the phase you declare as people you hate living near and want to get away from. It will have been a combination of attempting to intregrate and of commonality with those who decide they aren't some alien species that changed that. Just a thought. Edited by luckybuck (25 May 2014 4.28pm)
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 4.36pm |
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Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 4.09pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 4.05pm
Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 3.57pm
Of course 'no blacks' signs were in part born out of the fact that people had come from a different culture and were deemed to have nothing in common with us. Now many have integrated and it would be odd to differentiate based on race alone. I wonder what you'd have represented and stood for had you have been a grown man back then? Who knows? We are all products of our influences. I don't object to people based upon their skin colour and never have. For black people to become part of our culture to begin with, they would've gone through the phase you declare as people you hate living near and people you want to get away from. It will have been a combination of attempting to intregrate and of commonality with those who decide they aren't some alien species that changed that. Just a thought. Attempting to integrate? Not many first generation immigrants do that....Maybe half do to some degree....Many look to hold on (to their culture). It's the second generation who usually have far less problems and cause less social issues because of it. Your views are typical of someone who hasn't had bad experiences. I lived upon Stockwell Park Estate in the eighties....That's the same area and time of the Brixton riots....Some of which I observed from looking out of my mother's high rise council estate window. Being a 'white British' family on that estate we were about ten percent of the breakdown.....The 'nutty' Labour council wouldn't let us move off even though we experienced racism and attacks living there. I still bear the scars of that time physically. Racism from a minority mind....But that's all it takes. Personally I believe you should treat as you find and it's about culture with me. Regardless, what you say would be fine if it reflected reasonable numbers. Being surrounded by first generation immigrants in your own country isn't particularly fun if you don't enjoy widely different cultures.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| luckybuck 25 May 14 4.55pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 4.36pm
Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 4.09pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 4.05pm
Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 3.57pm
Of course 'no blacks' signs were in part born out of the fact that people had come from a different culture and were deemed to have nothing in common with us. Now many have integrated and it would be odd to differentiate based on race alone. I wonder what you'd have represented and stood for had you have been a grown man back then? Who knows? We are all products of our influences. I don't object to people based upon their skin colour and never have. For black people to become part of our culture to begin with, they would've gone through the phase you declare as people you hate living near and people you want to get away from. It will have been a combination of attempting to intregrate and of commonality with those who decide they aren't some alien species that changed that. Just a thought.
Your views are typical of someone who hasn't had bad experiences. I lived upon Stockwell Park Estate in the eighties....That's the same area and time of the Brixton riots....Some of which I observed from looking out of my mother's high rise council estate window. Being a 'white British' family on that estate we were about ten percent of the breakdown.....The 'nutty' Labour council wouldn't let us move off even though we experienced racism and attacks living there. I still bear the scars of that time physically. Racism from a minority mind....But that's all it takes. Personally I believe you should treat as you find and it's about culture with me. Regardless, what you say would be fine if it reflected reasonable numbers. Being surrounded by first generation immigrants in your own country isn't particularly fun if you don't enjoy widely different cultures. You shouldn't claim to know what a person has been through. In fact I've been subjected to experiences in my time that I could quite easily call racist attacks. They haven't dented my values though. I don't carry it with me or attribute it in any shape of form to individuals I don't know and haven't met. That would be my idea of hell. It sounds like you lived a 'minority experience' in Stockwell, being white where many non whites lived around you. Instead of using that to gain an insight into the kinds of experiences people have when they are placed on the fringes of society it appears that you're perpetually trying to get out of being in that situation again. You're viewing people in the situation you yourself were in with suspicion and dislike. Edited by luckybuck (25 May 2014 5.00pm)
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 5.19pm |
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Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 4.55pm
You shouldn't claim to know what a person has been through. In fact I've been subjected to experiences in my time that I could quite easily call racist attacks. They haven't dented my values though. I don't carry it with me or attribute it in any shape of form to individuals I don't know and haven't met. That would be my idea of hell. It sounds like you lived a 'minority experience' in Stockwell, being white where many non whites lived around you. Instead of using that to gain an insight into the kinds of experiences people have when they are placed on the fringes of society it appears that you're perpetually trying to get out of being in that situation again. You're viewing people in the situation you yourself were placed in with suspicion and dislike. Difference isn't disease. Edited by luckybuck (25 May 2014 4.58pm) Why shouldn't I? I said your views were typical of a certain type of person. I'm not claiming I know your personal experiences. It's quite amusing that you tell me to not claim to know your experiences when in your next paragraph you give an opinion about how I reacted to situations you didn't experience......Hypocritical. I do object to being within a cultural minority within my own country. If I moved to another country that would be a situation I'd willingly placed myself within.....But I haven't. This is where I was born.....So my expectations of wishing to live within a majority of my own culture aren't unreasonable at all. Your analogy of Wisbech with Stockwell doesn't make sense. As I said, if I had moved to a place where I knew I was going to be in that situation I wouldn't really have cause to moan about it. It's people in power with views like yours that create these situations by supporting 'open door' immigration levels. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 May 2014 5.26pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| luckybuck 25 May 14 5.50pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 5.19pm
Quote luckybuck at 25 May 2014 4.55pm
You shouldn't claim to know what a person has been through. In fact I've been subjected to experiences in my time that I could quite easily call racist attacks. They haven't dented my values though. I don't carry it with me or attribute it in any shape of form to individuals I don't know and haven't met. That would be my idea of hell. It sounds like you lived a 'minority experience' in Stockwell, being white where many non whites lived around you. Instead of using that to gain an insight into the kinds of experiences people have when they are placed on the fringes of society it appears that you're perpetually trying to get out of being in that situation again. You're viewing people in the situation you yourself were placed in with suspicion and dislike. Difference isn't disease. Edited by luckybuck (25 May 2014 4.58pm) Quote
Why shouldn't I? I said your views were typical of a certain type of person. I'm not claiming I know your personal experiences. You very obviously meant to suggest that I was likely part of that group that was typical, else why even say it? I'm just telling you that I'm not. Quote
It's quite amusing that you tell me to not claim to know your experiences when in your next paragraph you give an opinion about how I reacted to situations you didn't experience......Hypocritical. I suggested that you didn't know of my experience on account that I'd told you absolutely nothing about it. You based your view of me on nothing. You told me that you were a 10% minority and that you suffered racism. Having an opinion on information presented is very, very different from assuming that person hasn't had a bad experience and is 'typical', when none of that applies to them. Quote
I do object to being within a cultural minority within my own country. If I moved to another country that would be a situation I'd willingly placed myself within.....But I haven't. This is where I was born.....So my expectations of wishing to live within a majority of my own culture aren't unreasonable at all. Many move here by complete choice, just as many Brits do abroad. Plenty of people here haven't wished to place themselves in that position though. The wives, the children and so on. There are of course many reasons people end up here. There are pockets in countless countries that are minority centric. As you say, it's not really the fault of those moving there that you are unhappy with their presense. People have to be somewhere now don't they, and it can't always be in a configuration that suits you personally. Quote
Your analogy of Wisbech with Stockwell doesn't make sense. As I said, if I had moved to a place where I knew I was going to be in that situation I wouldn't really have cause to moan about it. Instead immigrants moved to where I lived....Not the other way around. I didn't say you moved to Wisbech because of the immigrants there. I said it looks like you perpetually want to get away from environments that go down that path, as it appears Wisbech has. That's fine. If and when you have the means, you can move somewhere else. That's your perfect right. Quote
Regardless, racism isn't something I support.....No one should be physically attacking or verbally abusing foreigners.....It isn't them I blame.
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It's people in power with views like yours that create these situations by supporting 'open door' immigration levels. Those 'typical' views of mine again no doubt, even though I don't support open door immigration at all. I wouldn't much care if the borders were tightened today. I do though care about how people already here are talked about and treated regardless of their background. Edited by luckybuck (25 May 2014 6.08pm)
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