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 matt_himself  Matataland 25 May 14 1.06pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 25 May 2014 11.46am
Quote matt_himself at 25 May 2014 10.23am
Quote nickgusset at 25 May 2014 9.45am
Quote matt_himself at 25 May 2014 8.45am
Quote Kermit8 at 24 May 2014 9.39pm
Quote matt_himself at 24 May 2014 6.48pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 24 May 2014 2.52pm
Just listened to Any Questions on Radio 4. The response of all three "main" parties to the questions raised by UKIP's success was the same. People who vote UKIP are basically a bunch of idiot racists who don't know what's good for them. Look at London, where everyone loves immigrants and diversity. If only the rest of the country could be as enlightened as London. If they were able to elevate themselves to our level of political debate they might understand. F*ck you, Angela Eagle, and your charlatan Labour party. I am voting UKIP at the next general election because I despise all of you. Not because I am a racist idiot who doesn't know what's good for him. Because I wish to show you the contempt you clearly show towards all but the small handful of swing voters in non-safe seats. F*ck you all. Rant over.
It annoys me that this is an admission that the parties have taken their eyes off of the most important part of heir job, voter satisfaction, and are doing as they please. All of the sycophants coming out of the woodwork and say this is a 'wake up call' has simply reinforced my view that unless there is an honest debate about the direction we wish as a country to engage with, then we are f***ed. Let's hope he careerists in Westminister take heed and engage.
Just like the left don't shut the f*** up about UKIP being racist, facist, homophobic, etc., yawn, etc?
What rich people vote tory even if they're not Christian shocker. You're scraping the barrel as usual.
Therefore, as this is bearing the hallmarks of prejudice, why are you not jumping on these comments in the same fashion you jumped on comments made by UKIP candidates on Romanians? I out it to you that you have a selective vision and view. You are a hypocrite.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| legaleagle 25 May 14 1.22pm |
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Speaking on the BBC’s Newsnight programme on Tuesday night, he said: “People vote according to their income. Now that can change – it might be a generation before people catch up. “If we were talking 50 years ago, the Roman Catholic community, the Irish community in Britain, the Jewish community was solidly Labour. Still the Irish Catholic community is pretty still solidly Labour because it is not terribly rich". Ken's point is that economic situation is the driver rather than race/religion/origin. He is generalising (many Jewish people are strongly anti-Tory)and that's open to legitimate criticism. But there is a slight difference between what is he saying and saying a national/racial/religious group are generally dodgy, coming here to sponge and not people you'd want as neighbours, which is what UKIP insinuate...
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 1.30pm |
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It's a massively general generalisation. Plenty of low income people vote Tory.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 25 May 14 1.50pm |
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True, massive generalisation. But,even given that, its true in the sense that the Jewish community was near-monolithically Labour voting 50/60 years ago, same in USA with the Democratic party. As the community (which had generally been poor)moved to (largely) 2nd/3rd generation in the UK and dispersed into various general income groups, that shattered and people began voting more along income lines in keeping with the general population.....Not so different to immigrant communities from, for example, Asia in the 1960's/70's. 100 years ago, Jewish immigrants faced precisely the same kind of scaremongering prejudice immigrants from Eastern Europe encounter today (ie not people you'd want as neighbours). So, as well as economic grounds, it is scarcely surprising the community generally shied away from voting for those on the right who were the main anti-immigrant force in those days. but my point was re the difference between what Ken said and the UKIP line..
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 2.29pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 25 May 2014 1.50pm
True, massive generalisation. But,even given that, its true in the sense that the Jewish community was near-monolithically Labour voting 50/60 years ago, same in USA with the Democratic party. As the community (which had generally been poor)moved to (largely) 2nd/3rd generation in the UK and dispersed into various general income groups, that shattered and people began voting more along income lines in keeping with the general population.....Not so different to immigrant communities from, for example, Asia in the 1960's/70's. 100 years ago, Jewish immigrants faced precisely the same kind of scaremongering prejudice immigrants from Eastern Europe encounter today (ie not people you'd want as neighbours). So, as well as economic grounds, it is scarcely surprising the community generally shied away from voting for those on the right who were the main anti-immigrant force in those days. but my point was re the difference between what Ken said and the UKIP line..
I would have thought that Livingstone would have kept away from talking about this particular group but.....Then again he's retired now so he probably cares even less than before.....Which while I rarely agree with him is at least refreshing. As for Ukip.....Well Ukip believe what the Tories and Labour believe. Indeed the benefits system has been changed by both of those parties to make it difficult for immigrants to avail themselves of our systems. The figures banded about by pro-immigration 'open door' idealogs who use them to often claim that immigration doesn't harm the UK are partly down to our system having in-built protections....Which still aren't perfect.....It isn't down to some nonsensical romantic view of immigrants. What Ukip believe in this area isn't really all that different to the main parties.....But they are more honest in their statements about it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| The White Horse 25 May 14 2.46pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 2.29pm
The income group and who you vote for is a stereotype. So like many stereotypes it has some truth to it but its a caricature of the real picture.....So him stating this without caveats just winds people up. It's the most reliable stereotype there is politically, I'd say. Was it Marx who said it originally? Something like "a man's politics is the best reflection of his material circumstances". Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 2.29pm
I would have thought that Livingstone would have kept away from talking about this particular group but.....Then again he's retired now so he probably cares even less than before.....Which while I rarely agree with him is at least refreshing. He made the comments mentioned during his last mayoral campaign over 2 years ago.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| legaleagle 25 May 14 3.01pm |
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Yes, you are right. The Tories (unsurprisingly, since UKIP stem originally from disaffected Tories) and Labour (shame on them, so as to not appear left wing and sacrifice principles to chase votes) have both pandered to populist anti-immigrant sentiment. Sentiment based upon thinking immigrants are a key causal factor for the mess we're in...in league with the other hardy perennial that all would be hunky dory were it not for "benefit scroungers". In fact, "savings" from denying health care to some groups of immigrants are miniscule compared to the defecit reduction/savings that would result from shutting down the many tax avoidance routes available to the big companies and high net worth individuals. For some reason, that's not high on the media and right-wing agenda. Its worth remembering that "the end of British civilisation as we know it" was predicted by those opposing Jewish immigration 100 years ago and those opposing migration from the Commonwealth in the 1960's/1970's.THe reality was our economic woes were based on end of empire and continuing economic decline that was already setting in 100 years ago. If we hadn't joined the EU, our economy might well and truly have sunk completely by now. There are massive numbers of Australian and New Zealand immigrants living here, but the press and political parties seeking the populist vote never seem to mention them...wonder why? Not to mention the vast number of Brits taking advantage of the EU to live overseas (and claim benefits like health care)... Its not about all immigrants being great...or our immigration policies being perfect. Neither are. What it is about is the utter nonsense of suggesting our economic and social woes are largely due to That is just the latest manifestation of the same old prejudice and scaremongering that's been going on for over 100 years...
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our EU membership and 
the migration within the EU that has resulted.....| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 3.05pm |
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Quote The White Horse at 25 May 2014 2.46pm
It's the most reliable stereotype there is politically, I'd say. Was it Marx who said it originally? Something like "a man's politics is the best reflection of his material circumstances".
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 25 May 14 3.10pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 3.05pm
Quote The White Horse at 25 May 2014 2.46pm
It's the most reliable stereotype there is politically, I'd say. Was it Marx who said it originally? Something like "a man's politics is the best reflection of his material circumstances".
Fair point, but not necessarily meaning the general principle is completely wrong.
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 3.20pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 25 May 2014 3.01pm
Yes, you are right. The Tories (unsurprisingly, since UKIP stem originally from disaffected Tories) and Labour (shame on them, so as to not appear left wing and sacrifice principles to chase votes) have both pandered to populist anti-immigrant sentiment. Sentiment based upon thinking immigrants are a key causal factor for the mess we're in...in league with the other hardy perennial that all would be hunky dory were it not for "benefit scroungers". In fact, "savings" from denying health care to some groups of immigrants are miniscule compared to the defecit reduction/savings that would result from shutting down the many tax avoidance routes available to the big companies and high net worth individuals. For some reason, that's not high on the media and right-wing agenda. Its worth remembering that "the end of British civilisation as we know it" was predicted by those opposing Jewish immigration 100 years ago and those opposing migration from the Commonwealth in the 1960's/1970's.THe reality was our economic woes were based on end of empire and continuing economic decline that was already setting in 100 years ago. If we hadn't joined the EU, our economy might well and truly have sunk completely by now. There are massive numbers of Australian and New Zealand immigrants living here, but the press and political parties seeking the populist vote never seem to mention them...wonder why? Not to mention the vast number of Brits taking advantage of the EU to live overseas (and claim benefits like health care)... Its not about all immigrants being great...or our immigration policies being perfect. Neither are. What it is about is the utter nonsense of suggesting our economic and social woes are largely due to That is just the latest manifestation of the same old prejudice and scaremongering that's been going on for over 100 years...
Your views are typical of why Ukip continue to gain support. It's denial and though your views aren't rude at all....Contained within them is a form of patronization. Antipodean immigrants? Their numbers can be controlled being outside the EU and their culture isn't that different to my own.....So as long as the numbers are reasonable I don't mind them.....This can't be said of Eastern European immigrants. The EU is party responsible for our economic woes though by no means all of it. The creation of the euro led to a system that the banking crises easily destroyed (though I'm talking degrees here as any system would have been damaged)....I'm more critical of how this EU has created an almost slave like system....Being out of the Euro (which Blair and the liberals would have put us in) saved us from the same level of damage.....As despite having a large financial sector and being hit hard we can devalue and hence react and respond. While I'm not a fan of what this EU has done economically to its people compared to what a looser more trade based system would done it is not my main issue with it. The total free movement of peoples is my biggest issue personally.....And all those British to have moved abroad don't exactly come high up on my list of concerns....Anyone who knows my views knows how I regard those 'cake and eat it' stop outs. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 May 2014 3.28pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 25 May 14 3.24pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 25 May 2014 3.10pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 25 May 2014 3.05pm
I personally know plenty of low income people who vote Tory. I grew up on a council estate and you'd be surprised. Fair point, but not necessarily meaning the general principle is completely wrong. As a general principle I'd agree.....Less right wing voters amongst low income people than left wing would be true....Yup....Though possibly more even amongst the aspirational.....Though that's just my opinion.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| luckybuck 25 May 14 3.29pm |
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