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jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Sep 15 4.10pm
Quote nairb75 at 24 Sep 2015 3.55pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Sep 2015 1.25pm The problem with military intervention in Syria, is a lack of suitable allied border states to establish supply lines and logistics. we have bases in turkey, which borders syria. Quote I don't really think there is a viable solution to the issue of Syria that the Europeans or US could actually achieve realistically from a military intervention - At least not until the Iraqi IS regions are pacified - and to achieve that on a level suitable for a full scale military assault into Syria, could take years. i'm coming to believe that the only solution is to for the west to completely take over a large portion of the middle east. many of these nations have proven no ability to govern themselves and insure the safety of their people. i know this will never happen but all we do is patch a wound again and again. then the wound gets exposed again. been hoping for decades now. Edited by nairb75 (24 Sep 2015 3.58pm) Turkey however isn't going to be very happy with the kind of deal that the Kurds are going to want, and has been using the 'raids on terrorist targets' in Syria to hit Kurdish positions. Taking over a large portion of the middle east is going to create a much bigger problem. The problems of the middle east and stability generally have no simple solution. There is a mistaken assumption that these nations share a culture, religion and affinity, when really all they share is a language. The only countries that arguably with a history of stability, have also been the countries with terrible histories of human rights abuse. Even before independence, many of these nations were 'difficult to rule' going back to the Roman empire. The middle east is more of a melting post of different sectarian, cultural and religious factions (and even tribes) - Driven by oil wealth, despotism, tribal associations, exploitation and rank disparity between the rich and the poor. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 24 Sep 15 4.10pm

Quote nairb75 at 24 Sep 2015 3.55pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Sep 2015 1.25pm

The problem with military intervention in Syria, is a lack of suitable allied border states to establish supply lines and logistics.

we have bases in turkey, which borders syria.

Quote I don't really think there is a viable solution to the issue of Syria that the Europeans or US could actually achieve realistically from a military intervention - At least not until the Iraqi IS regions are pacified - and to achieve that on a level suitable for a full scale military assault into Syria, could take years.

i'm coming to believe that the only solution is to for the west to completely take over a large portion of the middle east. many of these nations have proven no ability to govern themselves and insure the safety of their people. i know this will never happen but all we do is patch a wound again and again. then the wound gets exposed again. been hoping for decades now.

Edited by nairb75 (24 Sep 2015 3.58pm)

Turkey however isn't going to be very happy with the kind of deal that the Kurds are going to want, and has been using the 'raids on terrorist targets' in Syria to hit Kurdish positions.

Taking over a large portion of the middle east is going to create a much bigger problem. The problems of the middle east and stability generally have no simple solution. There is a mistaken assumption that these nations share a culture, religion and affinity, when really all they share is a language.

The only countries that arguably with a history of stability, have also been the countries with terrible histories of human rights abuse. Even before independence, many of these nations were 'difficult to rule' going back to the Roman empire. The middle east is more of a melting post of different sectarian, cultural and religious factions (and even tribes) - Driven by oil wealth, despotism, tribal associations, exploitation and rank disparity between the rich and the poor.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nairb75 Baltimore 24 Sep 15 4.38pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Sep 2015 4.10pm rank disparity between the rich and the poor. that's the problem. saudis have money but if you aren't in the ruling family, you're still a poor b******. i'd use the oil money to make a big middle class. middle class guys don't usually strap themselves with bombs. i know my proposal will never happen. but my point is there really needs to be a larger discussion by the west on how to deal with the problems in the middle east. bigger than wait for massive problems, go put out the fire, leave, rinse and repeat.
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nairb75

Baltimore 24 Sep 15 4.38pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Sep 2015 4.10pm
rank disparity between the rich and the poor.

that's the problem. saudis have money but if you aren't in the ruling family, you're still a poor b******. i'd use the oil money to make a big middle class. middle class guys don't usually strap themselves with bombs.

i know my proposal will never happen. but my point is there really needs to be a larger discussion by the west on how to deal with the problems in the middle east. bigger than wait for massive problems, go put out the fire, leave, rinse and repeat.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Sep 15 9.47am
Quote nairb75 at 24 Sep 2015 4.38pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Sep 2015 4.10pm rank disparity between the rich and the poor. that's the problem. saudis have money but if you aren't in the ruling family, you're still a poor b****. i'd use the oil money to make a big middle class. middle class guys don't usually strap themselves with bombs. i know my proposal will never happen. but my point is there really needs to be a larger discussion by the west on how to deal with the problems in the middle east. bigger than wait for massive problems, go put out the fire, leave, rinse and repeat. I wouldn't so much make a middle class (there kind of is, those who work for the Royals) but to establish an equitable redistribution of income and opportunities and eliminate the system of inherited privillage. Because sooner or later, that will happen in a less controlled manner, probably decided by Islamist movements. Saudi Arabia is a magnet for Islamist movements, its why it works so hard funneling people and money out of the country. If they turn their eyes to their home nation, they'd be proper fked. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 25 Sep 15 9.47am

Quote nairb75 at 24 Sep 2015 4.38pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Sep 2015 4.10pm
rank disparity between the rich and the poor.

I wouldn't so much make a middle class (there kind of is, those who work for the Royals) but to establish an equitable redistribution of income and opportunities and eliminate the system of inherited privillage. Because sooner or later, that will happen in a less controlled manner, probably decided by Islamist movements.

Saudi Arabia is a magnet for Islamist movements, its why it works so hard funneling people and money out of the country. If they turn their eyes to their home nation, they'd be proper f**ked.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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since1953 Maidenhead 25 Sep 15 10.47am
Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting.
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since1953

Maidenhead 25 Sep 15 10.47am

Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord:
1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing.
2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Sep 15 11.13am
Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting. It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU. I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 25 Sep 15 11.13am

Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am

It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU.

I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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chris123 hove actually 25 Sep 15 11.19am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting. It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU. I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved. I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant.
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chris123

hove actually 25 Sep 15 11.19am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am

Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am

I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Sep 15 11.38am
Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting. It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU. I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved. I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant. Yes, but linguistic that's bollocks. You don't stop being a refugee until you have asylum or temporary residence - That's a political convenience by which governments in less 'accessible' countries can duck their obligations. Its 'new speak' "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 25 Sep 15 11.38am

Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am

Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am

I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant.

Yes, but linguistic that's bollocks. You don't stop being a refugee until you have asylum or temporary residence - That's a political convenience by which governments in less 'accessible' countries can duck their obligations. Its 'new speak'

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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matt_himself Matataland 25 Sep 15 12.00pm
Its now been a few weeks since this 'crisis' begun and, I ask those who wanted to open our doors to all claiming 'asylum', how many of you have taken in a Syrian family? Please describe your experiences of this situation and how you feel you have benefited human kind. Unless, of course, your actions were limited to self righteous posturings on messageboards and liking photos or emotive meme's on Facebook... "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 25 Sep 15 12.00pm

Its now been a few weeks since this 'crisis' begun and, I ask those who wanted to open our doors to all claiming 'asylum', how many of you have taken in a Syrian family? Please describe your experiences of this situation and how you feel you have benefited human kind.

Unless, of course, your actions were limited to self righteous posturings on messageboards and liking photos or emotive meme's on Facebook...

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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chris123 hove actually 25 Sep 15 12.03pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.38am Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting. It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU. I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved. I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant. Yes, but linguistic that's bollocks. You don't stop being a refugee until you have asylum or temporary residence - That's a political convenience by which governments in less 'accessible' countries can duck their obligations. Its 'new speak' So you think a refugee and a migrant are synonymous?
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chris123

hove actually 25 Sep 15 12.03pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.38am

Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am

Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am

I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant.

So you think a refugee and a migrant are synonymous?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Sep 15 12.57pm
Quote matt_himself at 25 Sep 2015 12.00pm Its now been a few weeks since this 'crisis' begun and, I ask those who wanted to open our doors to all claiming 'asylum', how many of you have taken in a Syrian family? Please describe your experiences of this situation and how you feel you have benefited human kind. Unless, of course, your actions were limited to self righteous posturings on messageboards and liking photos or emotive meme's on Facebook... The most absurd form of rhetoric. You're better than that Matt. I'm very happy for tax revenues to be spent on humanitarian issues such as refugees fleeing a civil war. I'm not really sure I can fit a Syrian family into my spare room. Probably could take in a person though. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 25 Sep 15 12.57pm

Quote matt_himself at 25 Sep 2015 12.00pm

Unless, of course, your actions were limited to self righteous posturings on messageboards and liking photos or emotive meme's on Facebook...

The most absurd form of rhetoric. You're better than that Matt. I'm very happy for tax revenues to be spent on humanitarian issues such as refugees fleeing a civil war.

I'm not really sure I can fit a Syrian family into my spare room. Probably could take in a person though.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Sep 15 1.01pm
Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 12.03pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.38am Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting. It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU. I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved. I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant. Yes, but linguistic that's bollocks. You don't stop being a refugee until you have asylum or temporary residence - That's a political convenience by which governments in less 'accessible' countries can duck their obligations. Its 'new speak' So you think a refugee and a migrant are synonymous? No I think a refugee is someone displaced or persecuted in their own country, and has no choice but to either flee or seek protection from their own country. A migrant is someone moving from one country to another - It could be a refugee, but it isn't necessarily a refugee. My wife is a migrant, she left South Africa, came to the UK and taught. My friend Sirous is a refugee, because his mother, with him, fled Iran after the regime 'murdered' his father, elder brother and two uncles. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 25 Sep 15 1.01pm

Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 12.03pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.38am

Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am

Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am

I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant.

So you think a refugee and a migrant are synonymous?

No I think a refugee is someone displaced or persecuted in their own country, and has no choice but to either flee or seek protection from their own country.

A migrant is someone moving from one country to another - It could be a refugee, but it isn't necessarily a refugee.

My wife is a migrant, she left South Africa, came to the UK and taught. My friend Sirous is a refugee, because his mother, with him, fled Iran after the regime 'murdered' his father, elder brother and two uncles.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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chris123 hove actually 25 Sep 15 1.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 1.01pm Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 12.03pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.38am Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am Watching BBC News yesterday afternoon/evening two things particularly struck a chord: 1. Hungary has been vilified for not wishing to accept a quota of the refugees. The Hungarian Foreign Secretary,did his best to make a case for this in a very diplomatic fashion,however it was obvious that behind all this is the fact that Hungary is mainly Christian and simply does not want Muslims within its borders.He emphasised that it was the right of any State to protect its own borders, and that was what Hungary were doing. 2. A lady representative from a Migration service (I forget which one) said that the quota system simply would not work. The migrants/refugees were being picky about where they wanted to go, and would not accept anywhere else. It's just as well that we are out of all this, because the real problems are only just starting. It should only be a quota for refugees, not migrants. The failure to clearly distinguish between the two is likely as not part of the EU's pro-corporate policy and a means by which it can essentially enforce additional working economic migration from outside the EU. I don't have an issue with the UK giving refuge to those in need or danger. I draw the line at exploiting the desire of people for a better life as a means to undermine workers capacity to demand a fair wage in other countries - which is exactly what the EU Right of Movement has achieved. I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant. Yes, but linguistic that's bollocks. You don't stop being a refugee until you have asylum or temporary residence - That's a political convenience by which governments in less 'accessible' countries can duck their obligations. Its 'new speak' So you think a refugee and a migrant are synonymous? No I think a refugee is someone displaced or persecuted in their own country, and has no choice but to either flee or seek protection from their own country. A migrant is someone moving from one country to another - It could be a refugee, but it isn't necessarily a refugee. My wife is a migrant, she left South Africa, came to the UK and taught. My friend Sirous is a refugee, because his mother, with him, fled Iran after the regime 'murdered' his father, elder brother and two uncles. I can't see what you can disagree with in my post then.
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chris123

hove actually 25 Sep 15 1.04pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 1.01pm

Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 12.03pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.38am

Quote chris123 at 25 Sep 2015 11.19am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Sep 2015 11.13am

Quote since1953 at 25 Sep 2015 10.47am

I think as has been pointed out elsewhere, the moment you pass though a safe haven, you are an economic migrant.

So you think a refugee and a migrant are synonymous?

No I think a refugee is someone displaced or persecuted in their own country, and has no choice but to either flee or seek protection from their own country.

A migrant is someone moving from one country to another - It could be a refugee, but it isn't necessarily a refugee.

I can't see what you can disagree with in my post then.

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