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 serial thriller  The Promised Land 08 Jan 20 1.16am |
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You can't just go all Nietzschean as and when it suits you Stirling. Politics is a matter of principles and values. We leave the questions of cosmic relativism to philosophers when we decide to place our flag in the political theatre and say this is how we should be governed, and these are the actions our society should take. If we go to war with Iran, the consequences will be a massive trannsferral of resources from health, education and welfare to defence at home. It could lead to the deaths of thousands, even millions of people both here and abroad. Washing our hands of any moral position doesn't rub in that situation.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 08 Jan 20 1.18am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Again, you aren't getting it....perspective. Still, ok, let's play this childish game.....From my perspective: The stationing of troops in Europe to deter the Eastern block. The Korean war, the Vietham war. The first Iraqi war....the Serb/Bosnian war. And I support the Afghanistan war as a necessary response from the US and to a lesser extent even UK perspective. Vietnam!!!
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| Stirlingsays 08 Jan 20 1.21am |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Vietnam!!! Yep, without it Communism would have knocked down the whole of Asia and spread out from there. It showed that the US would stand and fight and it halted Communistic expansion. The British suffered seven times more dead at one Battle (Somme) than the US did in the whole campaign. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2020 1.38am)
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| Stirlingsays 08 Jan 20 1.30am |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
You can't just go all Nietzschean as and when it suits you Stirling. Why not? Isn't it just reality? Originally posted by serial thriller
Politics is a matter of principles and values. We leave the questions of cosmic relativism to philosophers when we decide to place our flag in the political theatre and say this is how we should be governed, and these are the actions our society should take. To an extent I'd agree as some of what you say echoes my perspective......However, what those principles and values are is subjective in its interpretation. Originally posted by serial thriller
If we go to war with Iran, the consequences will be a massive trannsferral of resources from health, education and welfare to defence at home. It could lead to the deaths of thousands, even millions of people both here and abroad. Washing our hands of any moral position doesn't rub in that situation. We aren't going to war with Iran......unless you count exchanges of missiles as 'war'. Iran will obviously come off worst in these exchanges...if it actually kills anyone and will then end up getting back at the US some other way. Probably via the many people it has in the west. Remember, 'diversity is our strength'. Apparently. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2020 1.31am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 08 Jan 20 1.40am |
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Ok, then if we are relativist you will also agree that the nation state is an ideological construct with no basis in reality, that human difference is imagined and therefore borders are unnecessary and that as ethics are all about perspective it makes no difference if I go out and clobber Nigel Farage and throw his pint all over him, so I should avoid punishment
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 08 Jan 20 1.42am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yep, without it Communism would have knocked down the whole of Asia and spread out from there. It showed that the US would stand and fight and it halted Communistic expansion. The British suffered seven times more dead at one Battle (Somme) than the US did in the whole campaign. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2020 1.38am) But Communism was strengthened in Vietnam during the war and Ho Chi Minh won? Oh, and it has been internationally recognised as a genocide and vast numbers of war crimes were committed...
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| Stirlingsays 08 Jan 20 1.53am |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Ok, then if we are relativist you will also agree that the nation state is an ideological construct with no basis in reality, that human difference is imagined and therefore borders are unnecessary and that as ethics are all about perspective it makes no difference if I go out and clobber Nigel Farage and throw his pint all over him, so I should avoid punishment
Yep, the nation state is an ideological construct. Human difference is imagined???? Na....they are as real as anything there is. If you go out and clobber Farage it only makes a difference to those that care about it. It would probably result in some punishment for you but in the scheme of things it makes no difference at all. There is right and wrong to you....there is right and wrong for me....There is no universal right and wrong.....Only what we can agree on which fits our specific perspectives. You are just a tiny concentration of matter 'floating' about relative to other concentrations.
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| Stirlingsays 08 Jan 20 2.00am |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
But Communism was strengthened in Vietnam during the war and Ho Chi Minh won? Oh, and it has been internationally recognised as a genocide and vast numbers of war crimes were committed... Well Vietnam survived rather than won....but then again, it's fair enough to say that regime survival probably constituted it.....but they did it by ignoring losses that no one in the west would have ignored. Like I said, the 'positive' from the Vietham war was that it stopped the spread of Communism in Asia due to the massive cost. Essentially Vietnam was a proxy cold war......It was far far better than the alternative and the cost was a deterrence all in itself. As for war crimes......Sure. However, war is by its intrinsic nature unjust. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2020 2.01am)
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 08 Jan 20 8.10am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well Vietnam survived rather than won....but then again, it's fair enough to say that regime survival probably constituted it.....but they did it by ignoring losses that no one in the west would have ignored. Like I said, the 'positive' from the Vietham war was that it stopped the spread of Communism in Asia due to the massive cost. Essentially Vietnam was a proxy cold war......It was far far better than the alternative and the cost was a deterrence all in itself. As for war crimes......Sure. However, war is by its intrinsic nature unjust. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2020 2.01am) Yes but when all of them are committed by one side there is no equivalence. Which brings us back to the current situation. Because the reason we can sit here and muse stoically about it all is none of us really feel that threatened by what's to come. But imagine you were living in Tehran now. Most Iranians hate their government, but they know that they are all that stand between them and the maniac in the white house who is willing to use them as pawns in his re-election bid. How would you feel?
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Jan 20 8.55am |
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Time for both sides to leave it how it is. Both thrown a jab at each other but the killing of Salami has been more productive, although the Iranian strike of 22 missiles on the two US/allies airbases does show the US what they can and are willing to do, instantly. The plane crash is a coincidence but there were Iranians on that flight leaving Iran for Ukraine. Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jan 2020 8.57am)
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| Badger11 Beckenham 08 Jan 20 9.00am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Time for both sides to leave it how it is. Both thrown a jab at each other but the killing of Salami has been more productive, although the Iranian strike of 22 missiles on the two US/allies airbases does show the US what they can and are willing to do, instantly. The plane crash is a coincidence but there were Iranians on that flight leaving Iran for Ukraine. Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jan 2020 8.57am) And the earthquake near one of their nuclear facilities?
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| Stirlingsays 08 Jan 20 9.43am |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Yes but when all of them are committed by one side there is no equivalence. That's just not true, [Link] and as for equivalence well the Vietcong were prepared to genocide their own people over a political ideology. It's how you choose to look at it. Originally posted by serial thriller
Which brings us back to the current situation. Because the reason we can sit here and muse stoically about it all is none of us really feel that threatened by what's to come. But imagine you were living in Tehran now. Most Iranians hate their government, but they know that they are all that stand between them and the maniac in the white house who is willing to use them as pawns in his re-election bid. How would you feel? The US election is over ten months away and this exchange with Iran will be long over. Your point is pretty moot. How does any individual in a conflict feel? How is that my responsibility? They are responsible for their feelings and I mine. I act in my self interest and they there's. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Jan 2020 9.52am)
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