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legaleagle  16 Jun 15 10.42pm |
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Ok,so basically you've never known any muslims personally well enough to form an idea of what any individuals are actually like as parents or people. How would you "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? And how would you differentiate between the minority of "extremists" and the vast numbers of non extremists (or do you draw no such distinction)? Edited by legaleagle (16 Jun 2015 10.42pm)
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 TUX redhill 16 Jun 15 10.43pm |
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Quote derben at 16 Jun 2015 10.24pm
Quote TUX at 16 Jun 2015 10.09pm
Quote derben at 16 Jun 2015 9.50pm
Quote TUX at 16 Jun 2015 9.38pm
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 9.11pm
Quote derben at 16 Jun 2015 5.37pm
It is pointless comparing how indigenous non-Muslim people bring their kids up with how Muslims do. The have a very different set of 'values' and are religion-ridden. It is like a country within a country. We need to maintain diplomatic relations but be on guard. Edited by derben (16 Jun 2015 5.37pm)
We should I, a member of 'the wider community', be expected to solve the problem of "impressionable under age kids' or young adults" going off to assist in the beheading and burning alive of people. Perhaps if the various Muslim spokesmen that appear in the media blaming the police, teachers and 'the wider community', spent more time on putting their house in order, it might help. However, at least they are leaving this country, hopefully never to return, which lessens the ever present possibility of them manifesting their 'impressionability' here. You chose to mention a native causing mayhem abroad. LOL, and you say I have no answers! .
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| derben 17 Jun 15 8.06am |
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Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 10.42pm
Ok,so basically you've never known any muslims personally well enough to form an idea of what any individuals are actually like as parents or people. How would you "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? And how would you differentiate between the minority of "extremists" and the vast numbers of non extremists (or do you draw no such distinction)? Edited by legaleagle (16 Jun 2015 10.42pm) You do love to try to put your words in my mouth. I've worked with Muslims in the past. Haven't socialised with them much, they don't go down the pub, they don't go in the bookies, they don't go to churches, don't see them at football matches or at the races, they tend to patronise other Muslims' businesses. I did try to say 'good morning' the other day to a Muslim couple in a lift in Birmingham - but just got silent glares back. How would I "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? Longer prison sentences for convicted terrorist offenders, shut down mosques where jihad is preached. Deport trouble making imported mullahs. Shut down schools where radicalisation is proved. Prosecute the likes of Moazann Begg, and other apologists, for support of terrorism. (While we are at it, stop ignoring organised child abuse if it happens to be conducted by Muslims). This would be a good start; I expect I and other HOLers could come up with some extras. How do you differentiate? The more extreme Muslims tend to shout Allah Snack-Bar at lot and call for the death of British troops, Tony Blair and all infidels etc.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Jun 15 8.36am |
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Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 9.11pm
Quote derben at 16 Jun 2015 5.37pm
It is pointless comparing how indigenous non-Muslim people bring their kids up with how Muslims do. The have a very different set of 'values' and are religion-ridden. It is like a country within a country. We need to maintain diplomatic relations but be on guard. Edited by derben (16 Jun 2015 5.37pm)
"if" children brought up against an Islamic background are more susceptible to being brainwashed into blowing them selves up etc. etc, that says two things to me, 1, the family structure within that Childs life must be shockingly devoid of any true nurturing by the parents (so the child finds it in the arms of a nutcase from ISIS), and two that any religion that pre disposes itself, and or makes it young followers targets for brain washers has to be inherently flawed and therefore wrong. It is the Job of a parent to protect and nurture their children is it not ? if that is the case you have to ask yourself if there is a chance that by following that (archaic) religion you run the risk of your children, wife, partner, becoming so disenfranchised with life in general, (primarily because of the values and standards of that religion) that they bugger off half way round the world to kill themselves and others in the process, The question has to be, why would you be part of that religion ? I’m not so naive as to think that all Muslims are swivel eyed loons who cant wait to put on a semtex over coat, however, if one of my little girls said she wanted to be a Buddhist...sure baby no problem. However if she said daddy I’m off down the mosque in Fort Neath.....? Are you fcuk as like, here have a pony instead. I know I've simplified the problem, but it really is a simple problem if you don’t want to run the risk of your kids running off to blow themselves up, don’t follow Islam, then you have negated the risk. Simple risk management.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| legaleagle 17 Jun 15 8.57am |
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Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 8.06am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 10.42pm
Ok,so basically you've never known any muslims personally well enough to form an idea of what any individuals are actually like as parents or people. How would you "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? And how would you differentiate between the minority of "extremists" and the vast numbers of non extremists (or do you draw no such distinction)? Edited by legaleagle (16 Jun 2015 10.42pm) You do love to try to put your words in my mouth. I've worked with Muslims in the past. Haven't socialised with them much, they don't go down the pub, they don't go in the bookies, they don't go to churches, don't see them at football matches or at the races, they tend to patronise other Muslims' businesses. I did try to say 'good morning' the other day to a Muslim couple in a lift in Birmingham - but just got silent glares back. How would I "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? Longer prison sentences for convicted terrorist offenders, shut down mosques where jihad is preached. Deport trouble making imported mullahs. Shut down schools where radicalisation is proved. Prosecute the likes of Moazann Begg, and other apologists, for support of terrorism. (While we are at it, stop ignoring organised child abuse if it happens to be conducted by Muslims). This would be a good start; I expect I and other HOLers could come up with some extras. How do you differentiate? The more extreme Muslims tend to shout Allah Snack-Bar at lot and call for the death of British troops, Tony Blair and all infidels etc.
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 17 Jun 15 9.11am |
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Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 8.06am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 10.42pm
Ok,so basically you've never known any muslims personally well enough to form an idea of what any individuals are actually like as parents or people. How would you "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? And how would you differentiate between the minority of "extremists" and the vast numbers of non extremists (or do you draw no such distinction)? Edited by legaleagle (16 Jun 2015 10.42pm) You do love to try to put your words in my mouth. I've worked with Muslims in the past. Haven't socialised with them much, they don't go down the pub, they don't go in the bookies, they don't go to churches, don't see them at football matches or at the races, they tend to patronise other Muslims' businesses. I did try to say 'good morning' the other day to a Muslim couple in a lift in Birmingham - but just got silent glares back. How would I "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? Longer prison sentences for convicted terrorist offenders, shut down mosques where jihad is preached. Deport trouble making imported mullahs. Shut down schools where radicalisation is proved. Prosecute the likes of Moazann Begg, and other apologists, for support of terrorism. (While we are at it, stop ignoring organised child abuse if it happens to be conducted by Muslims). This would be a good start; I expect I and other HOLers could come up with some extras. How do you differentiate? The more extreme Muslims tend to shout Allah Snack-Bar at lot and call for the death of British troops, Tony Blair and all infidels etc.
Jihad is the term used for the struggle Muslims go to continue their faith. Now this can of course manifest itself violently, as Al-Qaeda and IS are testament to. But it also means the inner struggle to uphold the virtues of Islam, which the vast majority of Muslims consider to be peaceful, caring and trusting from my experience. Therefore, to call on all Mosques preaching Jihad to be closed down is to call for every single mosque in this country to close its doors. Now I'm sure, secretly, you'd be just fine with that, but if you have any shred of respect for civil liberties you'll realise that's a bit fascist. Allah Akbar literally means 'God is the greatest'. If you're using that as a basis for identifying radical Muslims, I'm sure you could pop in to a church and round up all the Christians saying a similar thing. The rest of your post is mainly unreasonable hyperbole. 'Shut down schools where radicalisation is proved'. What is proof? A picture of Bin Laden on the wall and Jihadi John taking maths lessons? And what do you do with the hundreds of kids who have their school shut down, just leave them to sit at home playing FIFA all day? And why the f*ck should we arrest Moazann Begg? He's gone through the British judicial system and been found to have done nothing against the law, so are you now a higher authority than British courts? Like I say, scapegoating produces ignorance, and ignorance produces panic. What really gets me though is that our very own government are approaching the issue of radical Islam with a similar mentality to Derben. I know very little about Islam but rather than being immediately hostile to it, I've attempted to learn a bit about it. I went to a mosque the other day and have never experienced such friendly people in my life, all coming up to me and my mate and chatting, having a laugh, and generally showing two white guys a respect which two Muslims could never dream of getting were they to walk in to a church. I strongly encourage others to do likewise and see first hand what the majority of Muslims are like. Edited by serial thriller (17 Jun 2015 9.14am)
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| legaleagle 17 Jun 15 9.30am |
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Quote dannyh at 17 Jun 2015 8.36am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 9.11pm
Quote derben at 16 Jun 2015 5.37pm
It is pointless comparing how indigenous non-Muslim people bring their kids up with how Muslims do. The have a very different set of 'values' and are religion-ridden. It is like a country within a country. We need to maintain diplomatic relations but be on guard. Edited by derben (16 Jun 2015 5.37pm)
"if" children brought up against an Islamic background are more susceptible to being brainwashed into blowing them selves up etc. etc, that says two things to me, 1, the family structure within that Childs life must be shockingly devoid of any true nurturing by the parents (so the child finds it in the arms of a nutcase from ISIS), and two that any religion that pre disposes itself, and or makes it young followers targets for brain washers has to be inherently flawed and therefore wrong. It is the Job of a parent to protect and nurture their children is it not ? if that is the case you have to ask yourself if there is a chance that by following that (archaic) religion you run the risk of your children, wife, partner, becoming so disenfranchised with life in general, (primarily because of the values and standards of that religion) that they bugger off half way round the world to kill themselves and others in the process, The question has to be, why would you be part of that religion ? I’m not so naive as to think that all Muslims are swivel eyed loons who cant wait to put on a semtex over coat, however, if one of my little girls said she wanted to be a Buddhist...sure baby no problem. However if she said daddy I’m off down the mosque in Fort Neath.....? Are you fcuk as like, here have a pony instead. I know I've simplified the problem, but it really is a simple problem if you don’t want to run the risk of your kids running off to blow themselves up, don’t follow Islam, then you have negated the risk. Simple risk management.
You make the assumption that it is following the religion that predisposes people to becoming "disenfranchised with life in general"...that's quite an assumption... 5 muslim people where I work.All very different,ranging from very religious to pretty much agnostic. Range in "views" from tory voter to socialist to a political "islamist".The latter takes his son to watch Palace.He grew up in the W Midlands,regularly experiencing the delights of being on the receiving end of gratuitous "p*k* -bashing" then so popular as a local pastime for the "indigenous non muslims"back in the 70's. I completely disagree with his views,though to be honest no more than I do derben's general views about people of a different race,ethnicity or religion. Another is one of the "sweetest" people you'd ever meet.Geordie woman,spends much of her spare time doing charity work.Abhors violence of any kind.Her mum is an avid Newcastle fan. 3 are parents.Very hands-on, loving, caring parents.Kids doing really well in school/uni. Suppose the point is,when you stop demonising "muslims" as a general group (est 2.71 million in the UK as of 2011),people are about as different and varied in how they are as any other religious group.Funnily enough,generally they're just people like you and me,good and bad. Bit like Catholics in N Ireland...or baptists in the American south. Just a snapshot based on one person's personal experiences... In work terms,have come across some extremely "dodgy" jihadi types in cases I've been involved in...came across some pretty dodgy types connected with N Ireland,who happened to be Catholics, but that wasn't the key causal factor.Come across plenty of dodgy "indigenous non muslims",to use derben's delightful term,including people who neglect their kids,and engage in gratuitous violence,or their kids do. I don't claim to have answers but I suspect the question of why kids run off to join ISIS is a little more complex... Edited by legaleagle (17 Jun 2015 9.39am)
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| derben 17 Jun 15 9.58am |
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Quote serial thriller at 17 Jun 2015 9.11am
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 8.06am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 10.42pm
Ok,so basically you've never known any muslims personally well enough to form an idea of what any individuals are actually like as parents or people. How would you "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? And how would you differentiate between the minority of "extremists" and the vast numbers of non extremists (or do you draw no such distinction)? Edited by legaleagle (16 Jun 2015 10.42pm) You do love to try to put your words in my mouth. I've worked with Muslims in the past. Haven't socialised with them much, they don't go down the pub, they don't go in the bookies, they don't go to churches, don't see them at football matches or at the races, they tend to patronise other Muslims' businesses. I did try to say 'good morning' the other day to a Muslim couple in a lift in Birmingham - but just got silent glares back. How would I "crack down" harder in terms of actual measures? Longer prison sentences for convicted terrorist offenders, shut down mosques where jihad is preached. Deport trouble making imported mullahs. Shut down schools where radicalisation is proved. Prosecute the likes of Moazann Begg, and other apologists, for support of terrorism. (While we are at it, stop ignoring organised child abuse if it happens to be conducted by Muslims). This would be a good start; I expect I and other HOLers could come up with some extras. How do you differentiate? The more extreme Muslims tend to shout Allah Snack-Bar at lot and call for the death of British troops, Tony Blair and all infidels etc.
Jihad is the term used for the struggle Muslims go to continue their faith. Now this can of course manifest itself violently, as Al-Qaeda and IS are testament to. But it also means the inner struggle to uphold the virtues of Islam, which the vast majority of Muslims consider to be peaceful, caring and trusting from my experience. Therefore, to call on all Mosques preaching Jihad to be closed down is to call for every single mosque in this country to close its doors. Now I'm sure, secretly, you'd be just fine with that, but if you have any shred of respect for civil liberties you'll realise that's a bit fascist. Allah Akbar literally means 'God is the greatest'. If you're using that as a basis for identifying radical Muslims, I'm sure you could pop in to a church and round up all the Christians saying a similar thing. The rest of your post is mainly unreasonable hyperbole. 'Shut down schools where radicalisation is proved'. What is proof? A picture of Bin Laden on the wall and Jihadi John taking maths lessons? And what do you do with the hundreds of kids who have their school shut down, just leave them to sit at home playing FIFA all day? And why the f*ck should we arrest Moazann Begg? He's gone through the British judicial system and been found to have done nothing against the law, so are you now a higher authority than British courts? Like I say, scapegoating produces ignorance, and ignorance produces panic. What really gets me though is that our very own government are approaching the issue of radical Islam with a similar mentality to Derben. I know very little about Islam but rather than being immediately hostile to it, I've attempted to learn a bit about it. I went to a mosque the other day and have never experienced such friendly people in my life, all coming up to me and my mate and chatting, having a laugh, and generally showing two white guys a respect which two Muslims could never dream of getting were they to walk in to a church. I strongly encourage others to do likewise and see first hand what the majority of Muslims are like. Edited by serial thriller (17 Jun 2015 9.14am) Very happy to change 'jihad' to one of its meanings, ie: "a war or struggle against unbelievers". Moazaam Begg is a best an apologist for Islamic terrorism, and at worst a terrorist himself. Presumably you think John Terry should not have been fined and banned for using the word 'black' after being found not guilty by a British court? As for common and garden Islam, there is no such thing as Islamophobia. There are people who dislike Islam and will continue to dislike it no matter what fatuous legislation is enacted. They dislike it for perfectly good, rational, reasons: honour murders, female genital mutilation, Sharia courts, rampant postal vote fraud, trojan horse schools, hate preachers, anti-gay laws (including the death penalty), anti-women laws, anti-apostate laws (including the death penalty, anti-Semitism, etc.corrupt civil administration,
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Jun 15 10.00am |
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I'd suggest that the solution isn't to crack down harder on Muslim extremists, because that makes them harder to infiltrate and more security conscious when up to no good (not all extremists are terrorists, you can hold radical views without promoting terrorism). Where terrorists cells are discovered they have to be eliminated, either judicially in the UK, or extra judicially, with a view to minimizing fall out with host nations. Meanwhile, we also need to identify problems within our own society that incite extremists and create alienation of the Muslim population, particularly young Muslim men, and move to counter those problems and concerns in a reasonable manner (you'll always have Islamists and extremists, similar to how you'll always have people who demand a united Ireland, but you can marginalize those groups, by resolving the issues creating support for them). We ultimately have to accept that Muslims, and Muslim belief, is part of the UK culture, and in order to encourage greater interaction, we may need to ourselves make some concessions.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Jun 15 10.00am |
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Quote legaleagle at 17 Jun 2015 9.30am
Quote dannyh at 17 Jun 2015 8.36am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jun 2015 9.11pm
Quote derben at 16 Jun 2015 5.37pm
It is pointless comparing how indigenous non-Muslim people bring their kids up with how Muslims do. The have a very different set of 'values' and are religion-ridden. It is like a country within a country. We need to maintain diplomatic relations but be on guard. Edited by derben (16 Jun 2015 5.37pm)
"if" children brought up against an Islamic background are more susceptible to being brainwashed into blowing them selves up etc. etc, that says two things to me, 1, the family structure within that Childs life must be shockingly devoid of any true nurturing by the parents (so the child finds it in the arms of a nutcase from ISIS), and two that any religion that pre disposes itself, and or makes it young followers targets for brain washers has to be inherently flawed and therefore wrong. It is the Job of a parent to protect and nurture their children is it not ? if that is the case you have to ask yourself if there is a chance that by following that (archaic) religion you run the risk of your children, wife, partner, becoming so disenfranchised with life in general, (primarily because of the values and standards of that religion) that they bugger off half way round the world to kill themselves and others in the process, The question has to be, why would you be part of that religion ? I’m not so naive as to think that all Muslims are swivel eyed loons who cant wait to put on a semtex over coat, however, if one of my little girls said she wanted to be a Buddhist...sure baby no problem. However if she said daddy I’m off down the mosque in Fort Neath.....? Are you fcuk as like, here have a pony instead. I know I've simplified the problem, but it really is a simple problem if you don’t want to run the risk of your kids running off to blow themselves up, don’t follow Islam, then you have negated the risk. Simple risk management.
You make the assumption that it is following the religion that predisposes people to becoming "disenfranchised with life in general"...that's quite an assumption... 5 muslim people where I work.All very different,ranging from very religious to pretty much agnostic. Range in "views" from tory voter to socialist to a political "islamist".The latter takes his son to watch Palace.He grew up in the W Midlands,regularly experiencing the delights of being on the receiving end of gratuitous "p*k* -bashing" then so popular as a local pastime for the "indigenous non muslims"back in the 70's. I completely disagree with his views,though to be honest no more than I do derben's general views about people of a different race,ethnicity or religion. Another is one of the "sweetest" people you'd ever meet.Geordie woman,spends much of her spare time doing charity work.Abhors violence of any kind.Her mum is an avid Newcastle fan. 3 are parents.Very hands-on, loving, caring parents.Kids doing really well in school/uni. Suppose the point is,when you stop demonising "muslims" as a general group (est 2.71 million in the UK as of 2011),people are about as different and varied in how they are as any other religious group.Funnily enough,generally they're just people like you and me,good and bad. Bit like Catholics in N Ireland...or baptists in the American south. Just a snapshot based on one person's personal experiences... In work terms,have come across some extremely "dodgy" jihadi types in cases I've been involved in...came across some pretty dodgy types connected with N Ireland,who happened to be Catholics, but that wasn't the key causal factor.Come across plenty of dodgy "indigenous non muslims",to use derben's delightful term,including people who neglect their kids,and engage in gratuitous violence,or their kids do. I don't claim to have answers but I suspect the question of why kids run off to join ISIS is a little more complex... Edited by legaleagle (17 Jun 2015 9.39am)
No matter how you dress it up that surely is an inarguable fact? As I said, I am not saying that every Muslim Parent is an uncaring or a bad parent, some are. Bad parenting happens across all walks of life and in all races and religions (unless of course you believe Diane Abbott then all West Indian women are aces parents), but the fall out from being a bad parent from a Christian back ground, is not going to be a suicide bomber or a ISIS fighter is it ? Whilst no smoke without fire is a massively sweeping statement, there is this case more than an element of truth to it.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| reborn 17 Jun 15 10.04am |
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100 agree with Dan
My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs |
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The Sash  Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 17 Jun 15 10.58am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jun 2015 4.36pm
Quote Southampton_Eagle at 15 Jun 2015 4.29pm
Quote The Sash at 15 Jun 2015 3.36pm
Quote Southampton_Eagle at 15 Jun 2015 3.26pm
Quote The Sash at 15 Jun 2015 2.47pm
Quote derben at 15 Jun 2015 2.39pm
Imam Farooq Yunus, of the Zakaria Mosque in Savile Town, where the boys attended religious school, said they had been let down by the system. He said: “I think we have failed. Not just the people in here – the whole system - the council, the police, the community. The society have failed these two children and somehow we should put things in place where if they do feel strongly, they know what to do. “The fault lies in the wider community where we are not engaging with them.” Meanwhile the wonderful concept of multi-culturalism carries on regardless, ensuring that the UK is split into a plethora of separate 'communities' which are largely closed to each other and which each have different and conflicting views of how we should live. These two terrorists came from a community which is devoted to an ideology which demands that all who are born into it cannot abandon it and must obey it and propagate it wherever they go, against this, the 'wider community' is an irrelevance. Edited by derben (15 Jun 2015 2.44pm) These are such easy statements to make aren't they? The question to throw back at this obvious imbecile are quite simply 'HOW have the council, police, community and society 'failed' them ? ...or are you just a f~*cking apologist' Firstly, what are the council supposed to do? Secondly, the police would be accused of institutional racism if they got involved. Thirdly, how are the 'wider community' supposed to help when the immediate community do not integrate? Perhaps the mosque should take a closer look at themselves rather than blame every other c*nt for their students deciding to travel thousands of miles to grow a beard & blow up a building.
Very patchy. The seventy two virgins will not be impressed with the wispy chin pubes. Those blokes have been waiting all eternity to pop their cherry, they won't worry about whispy chin pubes 72 virgins...these Muslim suicide bombers must be really pissed when they ascend only to find they are in a male only Star Trek convention
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