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Stirlingsays 13 Jun 15 3.30pm | |
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Oh and while I accept that I could be wrong about inflation. I still think it's bulls***.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Ouzo Dan Behind you 13 Jun 15 3.39pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 13 Jun 2015 3.29pm
Quote Ouzo Dan at 13 Jun 2015 1.59pm
Cosmic inflation & the proof of its existence, The Derben I am too thick & lazy to pick up a book edition.
In 1964 two astronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson were listening to radio signals from space, they were hounded by a hum in the back ground, Thinking this was just interference & deciding it was the bird droppings left on the telescope they went about clearing the mess & triumphantly went back to work thinking they had solved the problem, it didnt.
The discovery of this fossil which sits up there with the discovery of DNA in how much of a big deal this is forms the foundations for us to be able to go back to a Trillionth of a Trillionth of a second after the big bang.
Edward Hubble discovered that Galaxies were moving away from us, although this also seemed to break the laws of physics as it appeared to show galaxies moving faster than the speed of light which we know is impossible (thanks Einstein) What we have discovered is its not the galaxies moving away from us at speed but the the space in between the galaxies that is expanding. The theory of expansion was first suggested by Alan Guth in the 70's. Einstein's theory of relativity had predicted the existence of Gravitational waves back in 1916 long before we had any means of detecting them, A classic example of how maths is the language of the universe. The Bicep telescope at the south pole has recently detected gravitational waves take a look at this video for evidence that inflation is a thing Its narrated far better than I could ever manage. This is effectively the smoking gun that scientists were looking for, Inflation is now the most accurate model for how the universe came into being, a singular point 100 billion billion times smaller than a proton containing a finite amount of energy inflating outwards at incredible speed. Also a bit of a tid bit of things we have learned since the discoveries above.
Edited by Ouzo Dan (13 Jun 2015 2.06pm) I think Dan your post kind of signals just the problem that I was referring to in my post. The presenting of....what is in fact...cutting edge research and claims as.....some accepted truth. The reality is that there is money to be made by teams being the first to discover important events in science.....Unfortunately this leads to some of them 'putting down markers' and jumping the gun before they are absolutely certain and have cross referenced with outside teams. So the media pick up their claims and present them as fact just as you did by repeating them. Unfortunately when these claims are shown as falling far short of the headlines the media aren't as interested. In terms of the search for truth it's insignificant but it doesn't help for the relationship between the public and the scientific community. Ah fair enough I am a little out of date is all.
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Stirlingsays 13 Jun 15 3.49pm | |
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Quote Ouzo Dan at 13 Jun 2015 3.39pm
Ah fair enough I am a little out of date is all.
Oh and yours was a very good reply.....If only more people interested in science had your grace. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jun 2015 3.52pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 13 Jun 15 4.38pm | |
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This is an excellent episode of Horizon "before the big bang".
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 15 5.09pm | |
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Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 13 Jun 2015 10.20am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 9.06am
Quote reborn at 12 Jun 2015 11.13pm
The Big Bang is the most convincing argument for a creator I have ever read. Infinite matter explodes out of nothing? Sounds like Creationism to me. Which would be fine if that was what the Big Bang was. Firstly there wasn't nothing, there was an absence of the dimension of time and space. Everything that exists in the universe, existed prior to big bang (ie the subatomic particles that construct everything). The big bang is a transition by which spacetime occurs, resulting in an entropic change in states of matter, as subatomic particles expand into that spacetime. If I might be so bold, I reject the idea that time was created with the Big Bang. I am going to be very unscientific and separate time from space. This is no doubt a contradiction in terms or an impossibility or something or other. Time is a property of space. The fourth dimension is space-time. Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 13 Jun 2015 10.20am
Time should involve the existence of something not just in terms of its spatial existence but something else, just a being which can be outside of a state of matter. The idea that everything was eternally existent and simply came into existence is to me wholly flawed. Matter is simpy an arrangement of subatomic particles. It wasn't eternally existent, because there was no space or time (this is where its tricky to conceptualise as our understand of reality is fixed in space time. Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 13 Jun 2015 10.20am
Where did the stuff come from when it wasn't in a state of matter? Where isn't a correct term, because space itself (space-time) is a product of the expansion of the Big Bang. This is why its a singularity event, because the fundermental laws of science we understand, aren't applicable (ie the constants we use in scientific theory don't yet exist). Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 13 Jun 2015 10.20am
But as to before the Big Bang, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of consensus. As to the question of eternity and the definite existence of stuff that isn't in a state of matter, I can only point to the existence of something supernatural and eternal such as God. I don't see how something can exist at one point and paradoxically exist for what is basically eternity without having any origin. This is of course consistant with physics, as nothing is ever created or destroyed, it simply changes form. There is no before as we can visualise it, only an after, effectively what you get into beyond that point is topological mathematical models, quantum field theory which are really beyond my capacity.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 15 5.22pm | |
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Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 11.23am
Quote Lyons550 at 13 Jun 2015 11.18am
He's barking up the wrong tree....Ancient Aliens has all the answers one needs! If Dawkins is a hero then Giorgio A. Tsoukalos is the Messiah...not a naughty boy! Edited by Lyons550 (13 Jun 2015 11.18am) Yes, I like the ancient aliens ideas. Would explain the curious mix of animal and intelligence in man, and the physical design flaws. So does evolution, without having to include aliens.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 15 5.27pm | |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 10.59pm
Well established principle! Basically what they are saying is, "we don't understand how the universe came into being, so we will just say it happened". Because scientifically we can only demonstrate it as a theory, based on existing understanding, to within fractions of a second after the event (this is one of the principle reasons for particle accelerators to replicate). Its one of a number of theories, that are in competition, the evidence accumilated points towards this being the most probable event, based on what is known.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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derben 13 Jun 15 6.14pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.22pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 11.23am
Quote Lyons550 at 13 Jun 2015 11.18am
He's barking up the wrong tree....Ancient Aliens has all the answers one needs! If Dawkins is a hero then Giorgio A. Tsoukalos is the Messiah...not a naughty boy! Edited by Lyons550 (13 Jun 2015 11.18am) Yes, I like the ancient aliens ideas. Would explain the curious mix of animal and intelligence in man, and the physical design flaws. So does evolution, without having to include aliens. Lack of a satisfactory 'missing link', ie: the great leap forward to early mankind.
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derben 13 Jun 15 6.14pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.27pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 10.59pm
Well established principle! Basically what they are saying is, "we don't understand how the universe came into being, so we will just say it happened". Because scientifically we can only demonstrate it as a theory, based on existing understanding, to within fractions of a second after the event (this is one of the principle reasons for particle accelerators to replicate). Its one of a number of theories, that are in competition, the evidence accumilated points towards this being the most probable event, based on what is known. Where was this 'singularity' and how did it come into existence?
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derben 13 Jun 15 7.26pm | |
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Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 6.14pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.22pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 11.23am
Quote Lyons550 at 13 Jun 2015 11.18am
He's barking up the wrong tree....Ancient Aliens has all the answers one needs! If Dawkins is a hero then Giorgio A. Tsoukalos is the Messiah...not a naughty boy! Edited by Lyons550 (13 Jun 2015 11.18am) Yes, I like the ancient aliens ideas. Would explain the curious mix of animal and intelligence in man, and the physical design flaws. So does evolution, without having to include aliens. Lack of a satisfactory 'missing link' (apart from tux), ie: the great leap forward to early mankind.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 15 8.54pm | |
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Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 6.14pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.22pm
Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 11.23am
Quote Lyons550 at 13 Jun 2015 11.18am
He's barking up the wrong tree....Ancient Aliens has all the answers one needs! If Dawkins is a hero then Giorgio A. Tsoukalos is the Messiah...not a naughty boy! Edited by Lyons550 (13 Jun 2015 11.18am) Yes, I like the ancient aliens ideas. Would explain the curious mix of animal and intelligence in man, and the physical design flaws. So does evolution, without having to include aliens. Lack of a satisfactory 'missing link', ie: the great leap forward to early mankind. Presumably you mean the other hominids that predate homo sapiens. The whole missing link is a total misnomer as it assumes a jump to Homo Sapians, from Pan Prior, rather than a development of homo sapiens from subspecies Hominina (such as Homo Habalis and the other human species). The quest for the missing link really is for the shared pan ancestor of chimpanzes and the hominia group - as its long been established that there were at least seven human species prior to Homo Sapians - and the discovery of their remains suggest strong evidence that these extinct humans evolved into our species.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 15 8.57pm | |
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Quote derben at 13 Jun 2015 6.14pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Jun 2015 5.27pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 10.59pm
Well established principle! Basically what they are saying is, "we don't understand how the universe came into being, so we will just say it happened". Because scientifically we can only demonstrate it as a theory, based on existing understanding, to within fractions of a second after the event (this is one of the principle reasons for particle accelerators to replicate). Its one of a number of theories, that are in competition, the evidence accumilated points towards this being the most probable event, based on what is known. Where was this 'singularity' and how did it come into existence? There wasn't yet a where for it to occur (as the singularity created space-time). As to why a transition occurred creating the universe, that's the big question, can't say I know the answer to that. That's then next big question. There is always a point at which knowledge gives way, to the unknown. For the record, I don't reject the possibility of a 'god', only that of the god presented by Religion and the cases made by those faiths. Divinity is a metaphysical debate, and as such is an argument about abstract associated concepts, rather than quantifiable qualities. Edited by jamiemartin721 (13 Jun 2015 9.01pm)
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