Jeremy Corbyn

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Jeremy Corbyn

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chris123 hove actually 22 Sep 15 11.31am
Quote Kermit8 at 22 Sep 2015 11.24am Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 11.17am Quote Kermit8 at 22 Sep 2015 10.43am Quote npn at 22 Sep 2015 10.34am Quote nickgusset at 21 Sep 2015 11.05pm As Corbyn has made renationalisation of the railways a priority, I thought I'd share this prescient clip from an old spitting image. [Link] Renationalisation of the railways is one close to my heart as a commuter for at least 3 hours a day. I'd be happy with anything which made the service better and/or cheaper. I have yet to see any evidence that renationalisation would do that - what exactly is Corbyn proposing? More central investment? Or does he just object to private companies making a profit from it? Not necessarily disagreeing, just haven't yet seen a "nationalising the railways will improve things because we will..." argument laying out the proposed causes and effects. £400 return to Manchester from Devon and not even first class - I saw that fare online recently - is a pretty good case for the prosecution. Trains were a bit crap before nationalisation and a a bit crap after. The difference is one had reasonable prices and was not driven by profit and the other is mostly about the filthy lucre and not so much a public service. Exeter to Manchester return is usually under a 100 quid if booked in advance. I was working there in Feb and the return from Caterham was 85 including tube. You have to wonder wonder what the equivalent price for that same distance train journey would be in France, Spain or Germany on their nationalised railways. I bet even booking on the day it would not be anywhere near £100. The £400 one did make me laugh though. How do they have the gall? I'm working in Vienna at the moment, it's 4.40 euro single from Vienna airport to the office about 24km, coming back from Heathrow to Caterham is 5.20 pounds on Oyster. Both pretty good - by comparison taxi in Vienna is 40 euro and Heathrow - Caterham is about 50 quid.
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chris123

hove actually 22 Sep 15 11.31am

Quote Kermit8 at 22 Sep 2015 11.24am

Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 11.17am

Quote Kermit8 at 22 Sep 2015 10.43am

Quote npn at 22 Sep 2015 10.34am

Quote nickgusset at 21 Sep 2015 11.05pm

As Corbyn has made renationalisation of the railways a priority, I thought I'd share this prescient clip from an old spitting image.

[Link]

Renationalisation of the railways is one close to my heart as a commuter for at least 3 hours a day. I'd be happy with anything which made the service better and/or cheaper. I have yet to see any evidence that renationalisation would do that - what exactly is Corbyn proposing? More central investment? Or does he just object to private companies making a profit from it?

Not necessarily disagreeing, just haven't yet seen a "nationalising the railways will improve things because we will..." argument laying out the proposed causes and effects.

£400 return to Manchester from Devon and not even first class - I saw that fare online recently - is a pretty good case for the prosecution.

Trains were a bit crap before nationalisation and a a bit crap after. The difference is one had reasonable prices and was not driven by profit and the other is mostly about the filthy lucre and not so much a public service.

Exeter to Manchester return is usually under a 100 quid if booked in advance. I was working there in Feb and the return from Caterham was 85 including tube.

You have to wonder wonder what the equivalent price for that same distance train journey would be in France, Spain or Germany on their nationalised railways. I bet even booking on the day it would not be anywhere near £100.

The £400 one did make me laugh though. How do they have the gall?

I'm working in Vienna at the moment, it's 4.40 euro single from Vienna airport to the office about 24km, coming back from Heathrow to Caterham is 5.20 pounds on Oyster. Both pretty good - by comparison taxi in Vienna is 40 euro and Heathrow - Caterham is about 50 quid.

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npn Crowborough 22 Sep 15 11.37am
Quote Kermit8 at 22 Sep 2015 10.43am Quote npn at 22 Sep 2015 10.34am Quote nickgusset at 21 Sep 2015 11.05pm As Corbyn has made renationalisation of the railways a priority, I thought I'd share this prescient clip from an old spitting image. [Link] Renationalisation of the railways is one close to my heart as a commuter for at least 3 hours a day. I'd be happy with anything which made the service better and/or cheaper. I have yet to see any evidence that renationalisation would do that - what exactly is Corbyn proposing? More central investment? Or does he just object to private companies making a profit from it? Not necessarily disagreeing, just haven't yet seen a "nationalising the railways will improve things because we will..." argument laying out the proposed causes and effects. £400 return to Manchester from Devon and not even first class - I saw that fare online recently - is a pretty good case for the prosecution. Trains were a bit crap before nationalisation and a a bit crap after. The difference is one had reasonable prices and was not driven by profit and the other is mostly about the filthy lucre and not so much a public service. You don't have to tell me how expensive it is (3,500 for my season ticket), but are we just talking about subsidising rail fairs here? Is the renationalisation just an exercise in taking it under government control so that the government absorbs the cost (if so, I can see an argument from non-users that it's unfair for them to be subsidising me - not that I'd be complaining obviously). This is my point, I've heard the "it's disgusting how expensive it is" argument (and agree with it), but nationalisation in itself does nothing to change that, unless part of the nationalisation idea is to nationalise and then subsidise.
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npn

Crowborough 22 Sep 15 11.37am

Quote Kermit8 at 22 Sep 2015 10.43am

Quote npn at 22 Sep 2015 10.34am

Quote nickgusset at 21 Sep 2015 11.05pm

As Corbyn has made renationalisation of the railways a priority, I thought I'd share this prescient clip from an old spitting image.

[Link]

Not necessarily disagreeing, just haven't yet seen a "nationalising the railways will improve things because we will..." argument laying out the proposed causes and effects.

£400 return to Manchester from Devon and not even first class - I saw that fare online recently - is a pretty good case for the prosecution.

You don't have to tell me how expensive it is (3,500 for my season ticket), but are we just talking about subsidising rail fairs here? Is the renationalisation just an exercise in taking it under government control so that the government absorbs the cost (if so, I can see an argument from non-users that it's unfair for them to be subsidising me - not that I'd be complaining obviously).

This is my point, I've heard the "it's disgusting how expensive it is" argument (and agree with it), but nationalisation in itself does nothing to change that, unless part of the nationalisation idea is to nationalise and then subsidise.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 22 Sep 15 12.43pm
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 22 Sep 15 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

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chris123 hove actually 22 Sep 15 12.56pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already? More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years.
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chris123

hove actually 22 Sep 15 12.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 22 Sep 15 1.02pm
Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 12.56pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already? More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years. Not what I meant.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 22 Sep 15 1.02pm

Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 12.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years.

Not what I meant.

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chris123 hove actually 22 Sep 15 1.11pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 1.02pm Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 12.56pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already? More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years. Not what I meant. The more we use the train the less significant a subsidy becomes, because we're all using it.
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chris123

hove actually 22 Sep 15 1.11pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 1.02pm

Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 12.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years.

Not what I meant.

The more we use the train the less significant a subsidy becomes, because we're all using it.

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matt_himself Matataland 22 Sep 15 1.17pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already? I understand, from a cursory internet check, that the tax payer subsidises the railways by approximately GBP 1.2 bn a year. What is your point regarding this? Plus, as someone who has a genuinely open mind regarding renationalisation of the railways, and as commuter who pays a significant amount to stand every morning in a crowded carriage, how would Corbyn address the following: 1. It would cost north of GBP 20 billion to renationalise the railways, this coupled with Network Rail's GBP 34 billion debts, plus the lawsuits that would probably follow such an event, would leave liabilities of circa GBP 70 billion in total. How would this be paid for and where would the money for the improvement of the tracks and rolling stock be raised?; 2. Given that Corbyn has said that he would campaign for Britain to stay within the EU, how would he address the situation that the renationalisation of the railways is apparently contrary to EU law? Would he campaign to leave the EU if his centrepiece 'Peoples Railway' was contrary to his position on the EU?; 3. What would be the strategy for the 'peoples railways'. Improved service or subsidised fares? And, as an observation, wouldn't it make more sense & more practical to renationalise the buses instead of the railways and operate the bus service in a more passenger orientated manner? "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 22 Sep 15 1.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

I understand, from a cursory internet check, that the tax payer subsidises the railways by approximately GBP 1.2 bn a year. What is your point regarding this?

Plus, as someone who has a genuinely open mind regarding renationalisation of the railways, and as commuter who pays a significant amount to stand every morning in a crowded carriage, how would Corbyn address the following:

1. It would cost north of GBP 20 billion to renationalise the railways, this coupled with Network Rail's GBP 34 billion debts, plus the lawsuits that would probably follow such an event, would leave liabilities of circa GBP 70 billion in total. How would this be paid for and where would the money for the improvement of the tracks and rolling stock be raised?;
2. Given that Corbyn has said that he would campaign for Britain to stay within the EU, how would he address the situation that the renationalisation of the railways is apparently contrary to EU law? Would he campaign to leave the EU if his centrepiece 'Peoples Railway' was contrary to his position on the EU?;
3. What would be the strategy for the 'peoples railways'. Improved service or subsidised fares? And, as an observation, wouldn't it make more sense & more practical to renationalise the buses instead of the railways and operate the bus service in a more passenger orientated manner?

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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npn Crowborough 22 Sep 15 1.19pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already? Yes, I believe they are. My point is that we just don't know enough about any proposal yet to decide that the proposed nationalisation is a good or a bad thing. Anyone who is making a decision on it at the moment is surely doing it purely from an ideological standpoint (because that's all we've got). If you're a lefty in favour of greater government control then YES, if you're a righty in favour of market forces then NO. I just want the best and cheapest rail travel possible (but then I spend a large proportion of my life on trains and I'm a selfish b@stard)
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npn

Crowborough 22 Sep 15 1.19pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

Yes, I believe they are.

My point is that we just don't know enough about any proposal yet to decide that the proposed nationalisation is a good or a bad thing. Anyone who is making a decision on it at the moment is surely doing it purely from an ideological standpoint (because that's all we've got). If you're a lefty in favour of greater government control then YES, if you're a righty in favour of market forces then NO.

I just want the best and cheapest rail travel possible (but then I spend a large proportion of my life on trains and I'm a selfish b@stard)

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We are goin up! Coulsdon 22 Sep 15 1.32pm
Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 1.17pm Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already? I understand, from a cursory internet check, that the tax payer subsidises the railways by approximately GBP 1.2 bn a year. What is your point regarding this? Plus, as someone who has a genuinely open mind regarding renationalisation of the railways, and as commuter who pays a significant amount to stand every morning in a crowded carriage, how would Corbyn address the following: 1. It would cost north of GBP 20 billion to renationalise the railways, this coupled with Network Rail's GBP 34 billion debts, plus the lawsuits that would probably follow such an event, would leave liabilities of circa GBP 70 billion in total. How would this be paid for and where would the money for the improvement of the tracks and rolling stock be raised?; 2. Given that Corbyn has said that he would campaign for Britain to stay within the EU, how would he address the situation that the renationalisation of the railways is apparently contrary to EU law? Would he campaign to leave the EU if his centrepiece 'Peoples Railway' was contrary to his position on the EU?; 3. What would be the strategy for the 'peoples railways'. Improved service or subsidised fares? And, as an observation, wouldn't it make more sense & more practical to renationalise the buses instead of the railways and operate the bus service in a more passenger orientated manner? This is the big one. Actually not possible to do whilst in the EU. To make some credible policy suggestions he's going to have to make a lot of compromises, isn't he? Or is he going to make a load of impossible promises, calling it the "politics of hope" when in actual fact it's the politics of false hope? I'm going to go with the latter. The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
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We are goin up!

Coulsdon 22 Sep 15 1.32pm

Send a Private Message to We are goin up!

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 1.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?

I understand, from a cursory internet check, that the tax payer subsidises the railways by approximately GBP 1.2 bn a year. What is your point regarding this?

This is the big one. Actually not possible to do whilst in the EU. To make some credible policy suggestions he's going to have to make a lot of compromises, isn't he?

Or is he going to make a load of impossible promises, calling it the "politics of hope" when in actual fact it's the politics of false hope?

I'm going to go with the latter.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Sep 15 1.34pm
I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Sep 15 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 22 Sep 15 1.37pm
This is all totally irrelevant as 'Comrade Corbyn' will never be in power to implement his policies.
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 22 Sep 15 1.37pm

This is all totally irrelevant as 'Comrade Corbyn' will never be in power to implement his policies.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Sep 15 1.41pm
Quote Willo at 22 Sep 2015 1.37pm This is all totally irrelevant as 'Comrade Corbyn' will never be in power to implement his policies. Hubris. I think he's unlikely to win the next election, but then I also thought Blair wouldn't be able to get the Labour party elected when he became leader. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Sep 15 1.41pm

Quote Willo at 22 Sep 2015 1.37pm

This is all totally irrelevant as 'Comrade Corbyn' will never be in power to implement his policies.

Hubris. I think he's unlikely to win the next election, but then I also thought Blair wouldn't be able to get the Labour party elected when he became leader.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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