Before Hamas had power....When the moderates were in power in Israel we had peace moves. We had Camp David....and lots of fatah/labour meetings......In general we know what an agreement looks like.

But even the moderates won't make peace with Hamas....I wouldn't make peace with Hamas.....You wouldn't either....Unless you want to make peace with someone who has promised to kill you.

The government of the people of Palestine has to recognise Israel......Otherwise we are stuck here.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.04pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

You don't get it. It doesn't matter who is in power on the Palestinian side the extreme right-wing Israelis will not, cannot, make peace because it is contrary to their raison d'être. That is why Rabin was killed by a Jew.

That inflexible stance is made a lot easier by having Hamas.

If the ultra-orthodox and Likud types lost their power base tomorrow and Israeli doves were in power Hamas would suddenly find it more difficult to garner support. But then those doves would be assassinated not by Palestinians but by their own people. The enemy within.

Big chest and massive boobs

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Rather than me not getting it. It is rather that you haven't read my posts.

I've typed up the power dynamic for both Israel and Palestinians quite a few times in this thread.

Even in replies directly to you I'm mentioned that a peace agreement involve civil wars for both sides.

But let me say this once again.

There can be no peace with Hamas in power.....None and there never will be. No western government will ever push for it.

It won't happen and that's a view accepted by pretty much most Israelis. They are happy to continue with continual war....They have accepted it.

While the right hold power in Israel they will push for more than the status quo. They will seek to push the Palestinians out....To continually weaken them.

There are plenty of people in Israel who are against this Gaza action.....But you won't find a significant body of people who think peace with Hamas is possible.....And that is because it isn't.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 11.34pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation

Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".

Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Ras*** (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."

The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.

In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.

Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.

The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds" where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars, from those same countries. The the budget of The Hamas was said to be greater than that of the Palestinian Authority. These new sources of funding enabled the Islamists to effectively pursue their various charitable activities. It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from the Hamas. And in this regard, Israel has done nothing to curb the inflow of money into the occupied territories.

The Hamas had built its strength through its various acts of sabotage of the peace process, in a way which was compatible with the interests of the Israeli government. In turn, the latter sought in a number of ways, to prevent the application of the Oslo accords. In other words, Hamas was fulfilling the functions for which it was originally created: to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State. And in this regard, Hamas and Ariel Sharon, see eye to eye; they are exactly on the same wave length.

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I didn't say Israel promotes Hamas now, they helped set up Hamas to destabilise Palestine. The link gives details, there's plenty of other information about this. Yes you are right, I do think Israel have an eye on the oil, just as they have on the oil in the Golan heights.

Stirling, we're going round in circles (again!) I maintain that were it not for Mossed aiding and influencing muslim groups to form in opposition to Fatah and the PLO, then Hamas would not have the hold it does today. A peaceful Palestine serves no purpose for the religious ideologically driven aims of Netanyahu and his cronies to control holy land West of the river Jordan.