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Israel / Palestine
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 matt_himself  Matataland 29 Jul 14 9.23pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 29 Jul 2014 9.13pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 8.52pm
Quote pefwin at 29 Jul 2014 8.32pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 8.20pm
Quote pefwin at 29 Jul 2014 7.51pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 7.36pm
Quote pefwin at 29 Jul 2014 7.32pm
Quote ghosteagle at 29 Jul 2014 4.28pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 4.24pm
Have a look at the history of Palestine and Israel. A lot of Palestinians were happy to sell their land to Jewish settlers pre and post 1948. The version being provided is too simplistic. This is, like the Balkans in the 1990's, a conflict we will never truly understand as we don't love there nor are really a part of it. So, i can't have a moral opinion on the murder of children unless i've lived in the country of the murderer. Weird. Does this apply to any other crimes or just the slaughter of the innocent?
I have really got to you, haven't I? Yes, you have. Anyone who is an apologist for the wiping out of a legitimate state, mass murder,or genocide really really "get my goat". Your antithesis would be those beardy blokes that want to go to the Near East to support ISIS, who annoy me just as much. Those idiots that your politics are encouraging.
I have consistently said throughout these threads that my sympathies lie with the ordinary people of both sides, I believe that both their leaderships are c***s and that Israel is fact, just as much as Palestine is a fact. What I don't subscribe too is Israel bad, Palestine good. The situation is too complex for that easy analogy. Good to see that this thread has changed your opinion, nobody is right or wrong, nor is blame an exercise in equality, nor condoning asymmetrical war ethical or pretty; however your grasp of Operation Protective edge is minimal. Perhaps if you have one of your visits to Hebron, you may be close to Gaza enough that you may get an update to give you an update. Don't try and pat yourself on the back. I have been consistent throughout these threads. These threads wouldn't change my mind because people like yourself and Gusset are so quick to label Israel and Israelis as bad. Keep digging about me. It is pisspoor and as intellectually bankrupt as Gusset's 'blah blah blah, you want to see people suffer don't you' posts. You haven't been consistent matt. As for your charge of me saying Israelis are bad. You are wrong. I have said I am against the right wing Israeli government, as I have also said I deplore Hamas. Get your facts right before dishing out insults.
The fact that you don't like being questionned you is your problem. I can take any questioning and encourage it. I have the hide of a rhino. That is to me, part of being an active member of a message board. If you can't take it, don't give it. You are right now coming over as self righteous and appearing to put yourself in a category where you cannot be questioned. That ain't on.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| StainesPalace Staines 29 Jul 14 9.23pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 4.27pm
Quote ghosteagle at 29 Jul 2014 4.08pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 2.43pm
Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 9.30pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 28 Jul 2014 9.07pm
Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 8.12pm
Stirling - Danny's 'Jon Snow' link is well worth watching. Only three minutes.
It just shows the injustice of war. How is our inaction on children dying in this action any different to Syrian children dying? Was hardly anyone supporting anything being done about that? The innocent die when guns or shells are fired.....That will always be the case.
It's a cop out. They are waging war on a very weak adversary in comparison and for every Hamas fighter they get with their guesswork like shelling it seems to be twenty or more civilians die of which a significant amount are very young. Israel are not under threat of invasion from Gaza or from weapons of mass destruction. So why are they being so belligerent and violent against a people where the vast majority of whom who have become casualties are no real danger to them? Unless 8 year olds having the cheek to play on a swing constitutes a violent anti-Semitic anti-Israeli attack so deserves a shelling. It really is one of many inexcusable war crimes committed. And they do the same thing every few years now. It's an inward looking almost-rogue state on that side of The Med now. Self-destructive even perhaps. Israel is fast losing the goodwill it may have expected from various parts of the globe. Israel must exist but it seriously needs to remodel and rebrand itself before it pushes even the US too far.
Imagine you weren't born into a comfortable life in Devon and you lived in South Israel where throughout your life, those peace loving Palestinians had lobbed rockets at you, kidnapped your family and friends and had a constitution that stated they wanted you dead. What would your thoughts be? Given that you were born in Israel and of are just going about your life, would you be happy with the situation? Would you like the threat of death or kidnap hanging over you and your family? What would up do in the second intifada when peace loving Palestinians were urging their young to going into buses and shopping centres and blowing themselves, and everyone around, them indiscriminately? Israel has been clear. The rocket attacks stop and the tunnels are destroyed. Then there will be talks. Hamas cares not for its people. It cares for power. Why did Hamas stop it's own ceasefire a few days ago? If it cared about its people it would do more to stop Israeli bombing.
Nice story, but deceptive and misleading. Most importantly you missed out the first chapter where you steal the Palestinians land and kill their children before fencing them in. And Israel has been very clear. It is determined to smash the people of Palestine until they refute their claim to their own land.
So back to you - do you think Hamas really cares for its people or really cares about power? The tunnels are of great strategic importance. Imagine this then. Hamas agree to stop the rockets and destroy the tunnels. Then Israel decides nah f*** it now that their tunnels are gone and they can't hide their rocket launchers and ammo we'll just march in and crush them by force. Asking them to destroy the tunnels is like saying to Britain 'you're peaceful destroy all your nuclear weapons snd get rid of your navy' We wouldnt do it cos we'd be vulnerable. Same applies to the tunnels. Or imagine someone pulls a knife on you in the street and you pick up a bottle and theres a stand off. Would you drop the bottle if the guy with the knife promises not to stab you? Edited by StainesPalace (29 Jul 2014 9.25pm)
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| matt_himself Matataland 29 Jul 14 9.46pm |
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Quote StainesPalace at 29 Jul 2014 9.23pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 4.27pm
Quote ghosteagle at 29 Jul 2014 4.08pm
Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 2.43pm
Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 9.30pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 28 Jul 2014 9.07pm
Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 8.12pm
Stirling - Danny's 'Jon Snow' link is well worth watching. Only three minutes.
It just shows the injustice of war. How is our inaction on children dying in this action any different to Syrian children dying? Was hardly anyone supporting anything being done about that? The innocent die when guns or shells are fired.....That will always be the case.
It's a cop out. They are waging war on a very weak adversary in comparison and for every Hamas fighter they get with their guesswork like shelling it seems to be twenty or more civilians die of which a significant amount are very young. Israel are not under threat of invasion from Gaza or from weapons of mass destruction. So why are they being so belligerent and violent against a people where the vast majority of whom who have become casualties are no real danger to them? Unless 8 year olds having the cheek to play on a swing constitutes a violent anti-Semitic anti-Israeli attack so deserves a shelling. It really is one of many inexcusable war crimes committed. And they do the same thing every few years now. It's an inward looking almost-rogue state on that side of The Med now. Self-destructive even perhaps. Israel is fast losing the goodwill it may have expected from various parts of the globe. Israel must exist but it seriously needs to remodel and rebrand itself before it pushes even the US too far.
Imagine you weren't born into a comfortable life in Devon and you lived in South Israel where throughout your life, those peace loving Palestinians had lobbed rockets at you, kidnapped your family and friends and had a constitution that stated they wanted you dead. What would your thoughts be? Given that you were born in Israel and of are just going about your life, would you be happy with the situation? Would you like the threat of death or kidnap hanging over you and your family? What would up do in the second intifada when peace loving Palestinians were urging their young to going into buses and shopping centres and blowing themselves, and everyone around, them indiscriminately? Israel has been clear. The rocket attacks stop and the tunnels are destroyed. Then there will be talks. Hamas cares not for its people. It cares for power. Why did Hamas stop it's own ceasefire a few days ago? If it cared about its people it would do more to stop Israeli bombing.
Nice story, but deceptive and misleading. Most importantly you missed out the first chapter where you steal the Palestinians land and kill their children before fencing them in. And Israel has been very clear. It is determined to smash the people of Palestine until they refute their claim to their own land.
So back to you - do you think Hamas really cares for its people or really cares about power? The tunnels are of great strategic importance. Imagine this then. Hamas agree to stop the rockets and destroy the tunnels. Then Israel decides nah f*** it now that their tunnels are gone and they can't hide their rocket launchers and ammo we'll just march in and crush them by force. Asking them to destroy the tunnels is like saying to Britain 'you're peaceful destroy all your nuclear weapons snd get rid of your navy' We wouldnt do it cos we'd be vulnerable. Same applies to the tunnels. Or imagine someone pulls a knife on you in the street and you pick up a bottle and theres a stand off. Would you drop the bottle if the guy with the knife promises not to stab you? Edited by StainesPalace (29 Jul 2014 9.25pm) I don't disagree with you but the simple fact is that Israel is not going back off until the rockets stop and the tunnels are destroyed. I personally believe the tunnels are more about money and propping up the Hamas machine than anything else.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Stirlingsays 29 Jul 14 9.56pm |
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Quote StainesPalace at 29 Jul 2014 9.23pm
The tunnels are of great strategic importance. Imagine this then. Hamas agree to stop the rockets and destroy the tunnels. Then Israel decides nah f*** it now that their tunnels are gone and they can't hide their rocket launchers and ammo we'll just march in and crush them by force. Asking them to destroy the tunnels is like saying to Britain 'you're peaceful destroy all your nuclear weapons snd get rid of your navy' We wouldnt do it cos we'd be vulnerable. Same applies to the tunnels. Or imagine someone pulls a knife on you in the street and you pick up a bottle and theres a stand off. Would you drop the bottle if the guy with the knife promises not to stab you? Edited by StainesPalace (29 Jul 2014 9.25pm)
Israel are currently doing exactly that....destroying the tunnels that start within a certain distance of the border.....It's mistaken anyway, Hamas just don't hide rockets in tunnels and everyone knows that. With your logic Israel wouldn't ever leave as they would have destroyed most of the tunnels and then could just kill the rest of the Palestinians....That isn't going to happen because it doesn't work like that....And when the IDF leave your entire post becomes nonsense. Hamas firing rockets is about as sensible as your post. It just gives an excuse to a far stronger enemy to periodically batter them. They do it partly for idealogical hatred of the Jews and partly down to funding from Iran and Saudi and other benefactors. Hatred internal and external keeps it all going. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 10.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 29 Jul 14 10.03pm |
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Yeah but the thing is, if the Palestinians agree to destroying their tunnels and to a ceasefire, they leave themselves in a position of absolute powerlessness, while the Isrealis remain in control of the police, judiciary and trade restrictions of the area. This invariably would play a part in negotiations, as the right in Israel would just see it as an attempt to squash them with ease. I'm not defending Hamas, just attempting to view it from their position.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| matt_himself Matataland 29 Jul 14 10.10pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 29 Jul 2014 10.03pm
Yeah but the thing is, if the Palestinians agree to destroying their tunnels and to a ceasefire, they leave themselves in a position of absolute powerlessness, while the Isrealis remain in control of the police, judiciary and trade restrictions of the area. This invariably would play a part in negotiations, as the right in Israel would just see it as an attempt to squash them with ease. I'm not defending Hamas, just attempting to view it from their position. This is the bit I am struggling with. It is ok for Hamas to have the tunnels but not ok for Israel to want rid of them? Therefore, what is the answer that mutually satisfies both sides!
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Stirlingsays 29 Jul 14 10.20pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 29 Jul 2014 10.03pm
Yeah but the thing is, if the Palestinians agree to destroying their tunnels and to a ceasefire, they leave themselves in a position of absolute powerlessness, while the Isrealis remain in control of the police, judiciary and trade restrictions of the area. This invariably would play a part in negotiations, as the right in Israel would just see it as an attempt to squash them with ease. I'm not defending Hamas, just attempting to view it from their position. You mean the position Hamas are currently in then? All the tunnels and rockets have bought them is the rubble they are standing in. As for negotiation......Well, Israel isn't going to negotiate with Hamas full stop. The IDF leave once the government think its made its point....Even though the whole thing is pointless and wrong.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 29 Jul 14 10.25pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 29 Jul 2014 10.10pm
Quote serial thriller at 29 Jul 2014 10.03pm
Yeah but the thing is, if the Palestinians agree to destroying their tunnels and to a ceasefire, they leave themselves in a position of absolute powerlessness, while the Isrealis remain in control of the police, judiciary and trade restrictions of the area. This invariably would play a part in negotiations, as the right in Israel would just see it as an attempt to squash them with ease. I'm not defending Hamas, just attempting to view it from their position. This is the bit I am struggling with. It is ok for Hamas to have the tunnels but not ok for Israel to want rid of them? Therefore, what is the answer that mutually satisfies both sides!
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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Kermit8  Hevon 29 Jul 14 10.27pm |
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I think of the Warsaw Ghetto and the perverse absurdity that now, quite easily, one can see that if it were re-imagined, that the Gazans would obviously be playing the Jews and the Israeli right-wing the Nazis. Tunnels, bombardment, hatred, blockades, civilians and children suffering the most, David v Goliath. It's all there. Likud - The Fourth Reich? Edited by Kermit8 (29 Jul 2014 10.40pm)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 29 Jul 14 10.34pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 29 Jul 2014 10.20pm
Quote serial thriller at 29 Jul 2014 10.03pm
Yeah but the thing is, if the Palestinians agree to destroying their tunnels and to a ceasefire, they leave themselves in a position of absolute powerlessness, while the Isrealis remain in control of the police, judiciary and trade restrictions of the area. This invariably would play a part in negotiations, as the right in Israel would just see it as an attempt to squash them with ease. I'm not defending Hamas, just attempting to view it from their position. You mean the position Hamas are currently in then? All the tunnels and rockets have bought them is the rubble they are standing in. As for negotiation......Well, Israel isn't going to negotiate with Hamas full stop. The IDF leave once the government think its made its point....Even though the whole thing is pointless and wrong.
Is it too heavy-handed Hamas or no Hamas? Or have they got it just about right and in proportion to the threat facing them? They think they have got it right, obviously. Does that stand up with some scrutiny?
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| Stirlingsays 29 Jul 14 10.48pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 10.34pm
Stirling- is it fair to say, from my observations on this thread, that your Is it too heavy-handed Hamas or no Hamas? Or have they got it just about right and in proportion to the threat facing them? They think they have got it right, obviously. Does that stand up with some scrutiny?
I'm against the Gaza action because it involves accepting far too many innocent dying with your targets. I don't know that this equates to not supporting Israel because the alternative is far worse. I support western facing democracies and that is what Israel is. If Hamas weren't attacking Israel and weren't at war then Israel don't have the excuse to blockage Gaza.....Then legitimate pressure could be applied upon the settlements. I view Hamas as far worse than Likud (though I agree with much of the more 'sensible' criticism of this coalition government and their attitude to peace)....Still Hamas are a false defender of the Palestinians and knowingly choose the worse options v the Israelis to keep their own base restocked.....Hamas constitution makes them fair game in my eyes. Anyone declaring war on me gets exactly that. Hence I will never criticise Israel for going after Hamas....Even though in a sense as that's war it is still a tragedy. I support a viable two state solution.....But we are a long long way from that......But I understand that while Hamas hold any power that even the labour party in Israel have zero incentive.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 29 Jul 14 10.57pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 29 Jul 2014 10.48pm
Quote Kermit8 at 29 Jul 2014 10.34pm
Stirling- is it fair to say, from my observations on this thread, that your Is it too heavy-handed Hamas or no Hamas? Or have they got it just about right and in proportion to the threat facing them? They think they have got it right, obviously. Does that stand up with some scrutiny?
I'm against the Gaza action because it involves accepting far too many innocent dying with your targets. If Hamas weren't attacking Israel and weren't at war then Israel don't have the excuse to blockage Gaza.....Then legitimate pressure could be applied upon the settlements. I view Hamas as far worse than Likud (though I agree with much of the more 'sensible' criticism of this coalition government and their attitude to peace)....Still Hamas are a false defender of the Palestinians and knowingly choose the worse options v the Israelis to keep their own base restocked.....Hamas constitution makes them fair game in my eyes. Anyone declaring war on me gets exactly that. Hence I will never criticise Israel for going after Hamas....Even though in a sense as that's war it is still a tragedy. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Jul 2014 10.49pm)
The problem being with the bolded bit that even before Hamas took power and in times of non-conflict the Gazans were subjected to harassment and restriction and various other Israeli subjugation tactics. That won't stop. Even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow. This is where a lot of anti-Israeli government policy sentiment stems from. Their wilfulness and their state terror over the years.
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