you been reading a lot of wiki recently or did Gab tell you?

Edited by Grumbles (01 Mar 2022 10.50pm)

I don't need a lecture on 20th century European politics. I lived through more than half of it, which is a lot more than most posting here. I understand full well what and how things developed.

This situation has nothing whatsoever to with any "past failures" by any politician, of any persuasion. Criticism is always a cheap commodity, especially with the benefit of hindsight, but it is beyond cheap now. It's irresponsible in these circumstances that the hard-right, and it is the hard-right, seem to want to point the finger of blame. It really doesn't matter how we got here at the moment. The only thing that matters is getting where we need to be.

There are lessons to be learned. There always are from every one of life's turns. There is also a time to learn them, and that time is not now. This is a time for unity and for those with criticism to keep their mouths, and keyboards quiet.

American leaders entering the House Chamber like they've been picked on The Price is Right.

Edited by BlueJay (02 Mar 2022 2.06am)

While we would probably agree on the desirable end point from here we obviously don't agree on how we got here.

You seem to think that knowledge of past failures and irresponsible statecraft are only believed on the 'hard right' as you put it.....The reality would obviously surprise you then.

Your concepts of blame here are similar to your viewpoint of Trump. You seem to have a filtered lens that can only see one way...it's very religious in that way. Similar to religion it assumes goodness and pure intent from one side and evil from another....that's not how the real world works.

This isn't really the time to do a deep dive into these matters. I think those actually interested in Russian history and world affairs probably already knows a fair bit about how we got here.

However, anyone interested in balance, who looks into the situation after the Berlin wall came down....anyone who actually looks into where Putin's views were at that time. Anyone who looks into what the west did and by extension Nato in relation to pursuing actions towards greater world peace would regard decisions as numerous opportunities lost....some might say incompetent at best and irresponsible greed otherwise.

What happened in Russia in the nineties and afterwards also was disastrous and itself led to Putin. Anyone serious who isn't just interested in 'Daily Star' type takes would reach a more nuanced perspective.

People could look into the politics of Ukraine, the 2014 coup and the dodgy deals...anyone balanced looking at that wouldn't have your rather rudimentary 'look no hands' analysis of how we got here.

None of that is a support for Russia invading Ukraine. You can be against that and also be against how we got here.

Innocent people are dying and suffering and what's playing out is human tragedy on significant scales.

But none of this can possibly be justification for invading another country. There is no justification at all. How we got here is soley down to Putin's decision making. If Finland decides to join NATO, is that justification to get invaded? And Sweeden too? Its almost like saying that Ukraine is to blame for getting itself invaded. They arent. Putin is blaming Ukraine deaths on the Ukrainians fighting back. No. The blood is on hs hands alone.