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 sickboy  Deal or Croydon 14 Sep 15 7.01am |
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Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'.
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Kermit8  Hevon 14 Sep 15 7.27am |
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Quote sickboy at 14 Sep 2015 7.01am
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'.
The scrub and mass camps of the neighbouring countries can't offer them a normal life or positive future. Edited by Kermit8 (14 Sep 2015 7.31am)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Sep 15 8.00am |
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Quote johnny the eagle at 13 Sep 2015 11.50pm
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'. I'm glad lots of our boy's and girls never did a runner in WW1 and WW2, and many other conflicts before and after those two. I wonder where we would be right now if everyone did one and didn't stand up for the freedom we enjoy today a. So which side would you have chosen. The Free Syrian Army (which is also heavily comprised of Shia Islamist Militias), The Assad Regime, The Al-Qaeda affiliates or IS (bearing in mind the Kurdish forces aren't overly interested in Syria, but unification with the Iraq Kurdish provinces).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Sep 15 8.05am |
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Quote johnny the eagle at 13 Sep 2015 11.50pm
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'. I'm glad lots of our boy's and girls never did a runner in WW1 and WW2, and many other conflicts before and after those two. I wonder where we would be right now if everyone did one and didn't stand up for the freedom we enjoy today a. How do you know some of them haven't been fighting in the civil war, and then fled when their side collapsed. Plenty of the areas which the Free Syrian Army and it allies held have fallen to Assad, IS etc. Should they also die pointlessly to prove it?
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 14 Sep 15 8.20am |
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If you have a still functioning country and a regime worth fighting for as we did in WW2 then 'yes' you must do your bit and stay. Even during the Yugoslav break up plenty of young men didn't want to fight for thugs and 'racial' causes and left. The young Syrians fleeing don't want to have anything to do with the 'options' offered to them by the various radical groups. And neither would you. Edited by Kermit8 (14 Sep 2015 8.21am)
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| oldcodger 14 Sep 15 8.49am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 14 Sep 2015 8.05am
Quote johnny the eagle at 13 Sep 2015 11.50pm
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'. I'm glad lots of our boy's and girls never did a runner in WW1 and WW2, and many other conflicts before and after those two. I wonder where we would be right now if everyone did one and didn't stand up for the freedom we enjoy today a. So which side would you have chosen. The Free Syrian Army (which is also heavily comprised of Shia Islamist Militias), The Assad Regime, The Al-Qaeda affiliates or IS (bearing in mind the Kurdish forces aren't overly interested in Syria, but unification with the Iraq Kurdish provinces). How do you know some of them haven't been fighting in the civil war, and then fled when their side collapsed. Plenty of the areas which the Free Syrian Army and it allies held have fallen to Assad, IS etc. Should they also die pointlessly to prove it? Exactly this and Kermit's comments. People without experience of war 'doubting the worth' of these people. If they put down their toy soldiers long enough, they might consider that at this point half of the entire Syrian population have fled their homes. We're led to believe that they're cowards and we're somehow better. Thinly veiled prejudice and 'wot I woulda done' self-aggrandisation.
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| johnny the eagle wivenhoe 14 Sep 15 9.08am |
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Quote oldcodger at 14 Sep 2015 8.49am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 14 Sep 2015 8.05am
Quote johnny the eagle at 13 Sep 2015 11.50pm
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'. I'm glad lots of our boy's and girls never did a runner in WW1 and WW2, and many other conflicts before and after those two. I wonder where we would be right now if everyone did one and didn't stand up for the freedom we enjoy today a. So which side would you have chosen. The Free Syrian Army (which is also heavily comprised of Shia Islamist Militias), The Assad Regime, The Al-Qaeda affiliates or IS (bearing in mind the Kurdish forces aren't overly interested in Syria, but unification with the Iraq Kurdish provinces). How do you know some of them haven't been fighting in the civil war, and then fled when their side collapsed. Plenty of the areas which the Free Syrian Army and it allies held have fallen to Assad, IS etc. Should they also die pointlessly to prove it? Exactly this and Kermit's comments. People without experience of war 'doubting the worth' of these people. If they put down their toy soldiers long enough, they might consider that at this point half of the entire Syrian population have fled their homes. We're led to believe that they're cowards and we're somehow better. Thinly veiled prejudice and 'wot I woulda done' self-aggrandisation. I don't have toy soldiers moosh, I've done my bit joined the army in 1964, remember Aden.
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| Mapletree Croydon 14 Sep 15 9.11am |
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Now we get to the point. The refugees are self-selected as they aren't Assad supporters and aren't IS supporters. These are, relatively speaking, the good guys. I don't agree that they won't return to Syria, many of them will wish to do so if and when it becomes stable and less unattractive. They are a highly patriotic (but sadly tribal) group, they will want to rebuild. So either we take them in, nurture them and help them get Syria back on the path to stability or we let them fall into the hands of others that have different morality than our own. We have a choice. A thriving Syria is in the interests of the West, a zombie state may suit others. When this moves on, probably there will be a caliphate in parts of what is now Syria and Iraq. I would think we may wish to have a 'friendly' country as its neighbour. Annoying and ridiculous that we had no plan at all when we encouraged this to kick off, it was all so predictable. Edited by Mapletree (14 Sep 2015 9.12am)
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| oldcodger 14 Sep 15 9.15am |
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Quote johnny the eagle at 14 Sep 2015 9.08am
Quote oldcodger at 14 Sep 2015 8.49am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 14 Sep 2015 8.05am
Quote johnny the eagle at 13 Sep 2015 11.50pm
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.07pm
Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 10.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 13 Sep 2015 9.50pm
Uu Quote sickboy at 13 Sep 2015 3.52pm
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 2.06pm
I agree entirely sickboy, but what is the chance of them returning to Syria/Afghanistan etc once the fighting has finished? Very slim I would suggest. Tracking them down and processing them for deportation would be expensive and almost impossible. Realistically then, once you have taken them in you will have to accept them as potentially new citizens. This may suit Germany and Sweden for economic reasons but I find the prospect unattractive.
Edited by Kermit8 (13 Sep 2015 9.51pm)
If you're in a war zone, where does this idea come from that the only viable option is to move to the next country over from the war zone. Of course many do that, but those who don't may do so for a multitude of reasons, perceived safety being one of them - not only 'financial reasons'. I'm glad lots of our boy's and girls never did a runner in WW1 and WW2, and many other conflicts before and after those two. I wonder where we would be right now if everyone did one and didn't stand up for the freedom we enjoy today a. So which side would you have chosen. The Free Syrian Army (which is also heavily comprised of Shia Islamist Militias), The Assad Regime, The Al-Qaeda affiliates or IS (bearing in mind the Kurdish forces aren't overly interested in Syria, but unification with the Iraq Kurdish provinces). How do you know some of them haven't been fighting in the civil war, and then fled when their side collapsed. Plenty of the areas which the Free Syrian Army and it allies held have fallen to Assad, IS etc. Should they also die pointlessly to prove it? Exactly this and Kermit's comments. People without experience of war 'doubting the worth' of these people. If they put down their toy soldiers long enough, they might consider that at this point half of the entire Syrian population have fled their homes. We're led to believe that they're cowards and we're somehow better. Thinly veiled prejudice and 'wot I woulda done' self-aggrandisation. I don't have toy soldiers moosh, I've done my bit joined the army in 1964, remember Aden. My comment was aimed at those who haven't. I appreciate, in both senses, that some have.
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| oldcodger 14 Sep 15 9.22am |
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Quote Mapletree at 14 Sep 2015 9.11am
Now we get to the point. The refugees are self-selected as they aren't Assad supporters and aren't IS supporters. These are, relatively speaking, the good guys. I don't agree that they won't return to Syria, many of them will wish to do so if and when it becomes stable and less unattractive. They are a highly patriotic (but sadly tribal) group, they will want to rebuild. So either we take them in, nurture them and help them get Syria back on the path to stability or we let them fall into the hands of others that have different morality than our own. We have a choice. A thriving Syria is in the interests of the West, a zombie state may suit others. When this moves on, probably there will be a caliphate in parts of what is now Syria and Iraq. I would think we may wish to have a 'friendly' country as its neighbour. Annoying and ridiculous that we had no plan at all when we encouraged this to kick off, it was all so predictable. Edited by Mapletree (14 Sep 2015 9.12am) An apt description I think. When we consider how violent the whole area has become, it's ironic that we're angry at people for not wanting to fight. It's back to our toy soldier mentality, of imagining there are static sides of good guys and bad guys. Their reality says different. Edited by oldcodger (14 Sep 2015 9.34am)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 14 Sep 15 10.08am |
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Just to add that four years ago millions of these 'cowards' came out onto the streets of Syria which then was a tight police and military state not shy in jailing, torturing and murdering dissenters. I somehow don't think you 'establishment' and 'they are on the take' types would be as quarter brave given similar circumstances. In fact, I think you would have fled four years ago or sided with the corrupt government.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Sep 15 11.51am |
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Its also debatable how 'free' the Free Syrian Army is. Radio four had a report out with the rebel factions that make up what we call 'the Free Syrian Army and Rebels' and those on the ground, even among the rebels, didn't really think of themselves as being a single 'coherent faction', but comprised of several factions united more by common enemy (the IS and Assad factions - for example in the Free Syrian areas, Shia militias are allied with ex-Syrian Army and other armed groups, against IS and Assad). The US command seems to believe that the only viable ground ally are the Kurdish forces, regarding the Free Syrian Army as being certain to fragment on 'victory' similar to the situation in Afghanistan after the defeat of the soviets (ie their allied by a common enemy, not a common cause).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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