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Hrolf The Ganger 12 Sep 15 11.38am
It is quite astonishing how people lose all sense of perspective when presented with a bit of emotive journalism or a few unpleasant pictures. There are people living in dreadful conditions every minute of every day all over the World. Suddenly, it seems, we must save these ones. It is totally irrational and although I share the sadness of seeing people in upheaval, it is not possible to open our gates every time someone else is having a crisis. I wonder if they would be so keen to help us if the boot was on the other foot ? Am I unsympathetic ? No, just realistic. Furthermore, the idea that we have to import people to fill our pension,labour and tax gap is nuts. Why haven't we encouraged our existing population to have more kids ? Probably because it's cheaper to import ready made ones with no cost for educating them. I suppose it's all fine if we want Britain to be unrecognisable in 50 years. Personally, my fear is that I don't want to see 500 years of good work since the Reformation undone by imported loony religious dogma. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (12 Sep 2015 11.39am)
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Hrolf The Ganger

12 Sep 15 11.38am

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It is quite astonishing how people lose all sense of perspective when presented with a bit of emotive journalism or a few unpleasant pictures. There are people living in dreadful conditions every minute of every day all over the World.
Suddenly, it seems, we must save these ones. It is totally irrational and although I share the sadness of seeing people in upheaval, it is not possible to open our gates every time someone else is having a crisis.

I wonder if they would be so keen to help us if the boot was on the other foot ?
Am I unsympathetic ? No, just realistic.

Furthermore, the idea that we have to import people to fill our pension,labour and tax gap is nuts.
Why haven't we encouraged our existing population to have more kids ? Probably because it's cheaper to import ready made ones with no cost for educating them.

I suppose it's all fine if we want Britain to be unrecognisable in 50 years. Personally, my fear is that I don't want to see 500 years of good work since the Reformation undone by imported loony religious dogma.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (12 Sep 2015 11.39am)

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johnfirewall 12 Sep 15 11.56am
Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 11.32am Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am I'm glad it was not only me that noticed some of the immigrants were wearing top of the range trainers and were using the latest mobile phones to direct them to the next border. Some of the ladies were pushing state of the art buggies. Doesn't quite correlate with the images of refugees seen in the photos post World War ll.Those in the camps seem far more genuine, and I support Cameron in this. I was particularly annoyed at the sight of some "refugees" holding up a poster in a train carriage on the German/Danish border which said something like "We don't want Denmark, we want Sweden". No wonder the Danes want nothing to do with them.We should keep well out of all this. Let me just understand this. If you are wealthy and can afford nice trainers you automatically can't be affected by a war going on around you? You aren't in the same danger as the poor people? Hmm, wish I were wealthier then and thereby immune to being shot and blown up. You're less affected because you can afford to get out of the country. Hence those are the people we're seeing.
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johnfirewall

12 Sep 15 11.56am

Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 11.32am

Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am

I'm glad it was not only me that noticed some of the immigrants were wearing top of the range trainers and were using the latest mobile phones to direct them to the next border. Some of the ladies were pushing state of the art buggies. Doesn't quite correlate with the images of refugees seen in the photos post World War ll.Those in the camps seem far more genuine, and I support Cameron in this. I was particularly annoyed at the sight of some "refugees" holding up a poster in a train carriage on the German/Danish border which said something like "We don't want Denmark, we want Sweden". No wonder the Danes want nothing to do with them.We should keep well out of all this.

Let me just understand this. If you are wealthy and can afford nice trainers you automatically can't be affected by a war going on around you? You aren't in the same danger as the poor people? Hmm, wish I were wealthier then and thereby immune to being shot and blown up.

You're less affected because you can afford to get out of the country. Hence those are the people we're seeing.

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eritheagle Erith 12 Sep 15 11.59am
Quote susmik at 12 Sep 2015 11.21am Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am I'm glad it was not only me that noticed some of the immigrants were wearing top of the range trainers and were using the latest mobile phones to direct them to the next border. Some of the ladies were pushing state of the art buggies. Doesn't quite correlate with the images of refugees seen in the photos post World War ll.Those in the camps seem far more genuine, and I support Cameron in this. I was particularly annoyed at the sight of some "refugees" holding up a poster in a train carriage on the German/Danish border which said something like "We don't want Denmark, we want Sweden". No wonder the Danes want nothing to do with them.We should keep well out of all this. I totally agree with you on this. Me too! They seem to know exactly where they want to go and want they want. I would just be happy with being safe in the first country I reached if it was me. I fear it will kick off soon in Serbia, Hungary, Germany etc!
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eritheagle

Erith 12 Sep 15 11.59am

Quote susmik at 12 Sep 2015 11.21am

Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am

I totally agree with you on this.

Me too! They seem to know exactly where they want to go and want they want. I would just be happy with being safe in the first country I reached if it was me.

I fear it will kick off soon in Serbia, Hungary, Germany etc!

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Mapletree Croydon 12 Sep 15 12.17pm
Quote johnfirewall at 12 Sep 2015 11.56am Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 11.32am Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am I'm glad it was not only me that noticed some of the immigrants were wearing top of the range trainers and were using the latest mobile phones to direct them to the next border. Some of the ladies were pushing state of the art buggies. Doesn't quite correlate with the images of refugees seen in the photos post World War ll.Those in the camps seem far more genuine, and I support Cameron in this. I was particularly annoyed at the sight of some "refugees" holding up a poster in a train carriage on the German/Danish border which said something like "We don't want Denmark, we want Sweden". No wonder the Danes want nothing to do with them.We should keep well out of all this. Let me just understand this. If you are wealthy and can afford nice trainers you automatically can't be affected by a war going on around you? You aren't in the same danger as the poor people? Hmm, wish I were wealthier then and thereby immune to being shot and blown up. You're less affected because you can afford to get out of the country. Hence those are the people we're seeing. Just a thought then. If we are going to take refugees which would be better for the country, the early waves or the later waves? Which would integrate quickest, bring extra wealth, pay their way, bring new knowledge etc? In the end they all have the same problem, war doesn't discriminate. So don't tell me the poorer people are more needy, the most needy people are those nearest the worst fighting. So why are people so against those with nice trainers?
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Mapletree

Croydon 12 Sep 15 12.17pm

Quote johnfirewall at 12 Sep 2015 11.56am

Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 11.32am

Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am

You're less affected because you can afford to get out of the country. Hence those are the people we're seeing.

Just a thought then. If we are going to take refugees which would be better for the country, the early waves or the later waves? Which would integrate quickest, bring extra wealth, pay their way, bring new knowledge etc? In the end they all have the same problem, war doesn't discriminate. So don't tell me the poorer people are more needy, the most needy people are those nearest the worst fighting. So why are people so against those with nice trainers?

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Kermit8 Hevon 12 Sep 15 1.52pm
Google earthed Aleppo yesterday. It's like a ghost city. 2 million people gone it appears. No wonder so many are going via Turkey. It's the nearest, most obvious and probably safest route. What is also becoming very apparent too is that Syria as a whole country has probably thrown in the towel. What will emerge who knows but if ever there was a death of a nation this is it. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 12 Sep 15 1.52pm

Google earthed Aleppo yesterday. It's like a ghost city. 2 million people gone it appears. No wonder so many are going via Turkey. It's the nearest, most obvious and probably safest route.

What is also becoming very apparent too is that Syria as a whole country has probably thrown in the towel. What will emerge who knows but if ever there was a death of a nation this is it.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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johnfirewall 13 Sep 15 10.07am
Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 12.17pm Quote johnfirewall at 12 Sep 2015 11.56am Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 11.32am Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am I'm glad it was not only me that noticed some of the immigrants were wearing top of the range trainers and were using the latest mobile phones to direct them to the next border. Some of the ladies were pushing state of the art buggies. Doesn't quite correlate with the images of refugees seen in the photos post World War ll.Those in the camps seem far more genuine, and I support Cameron in this. I was particularly annoyed at the sight of some "refugees" holding up a poster in a train carriage on the German/Danish border which said something like "We don't want Denmark, we want Sweden". No wonder the Danes want nothing to do with them.We should keep well out of all this. Let me just understand this. If you are wealthy and can afford nice trainers you automatically can't be affected by a war going on around you? You aren't in the same danger as the poor people? Hmm, wish I were wealthier then and thereby immune to being shot and blown up. You're less affected because you can afford to get out of the country. Hence those are the people we're seeing. Just a thought then. If we are going to take refugees which would be better for the country, the early waves or the later waves? Which would integrate quickest, bring extra wealth, pay their way, bring new knowledge etc? In the end they all have the same problem, war doesn't discriminate. So don't tell me the poorer people are more needy, the most needy people are those nearest the worst fighting. So why are people so against those with nice trainers? That sounds an awful lot like capitalism. I won't start debating the benefits to the UK but Would Syria not be better off keeping those who could rebuild it?
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johnfirewall

13 Sep 15 10.07am

Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 12.17pm

Quote johnfirewall at 12 Sep 2015 11.56am

Quote Mapletree at 12 Sep 2015 11.32am

Quote since1953 at 12 Sep 2015 10.29am

You're less affected because you can afford to get out of the country. Hence those are the people we're seeing.

That sounds an awful lot like capitalism.

I won't start debating the benefits to the UK but Would Syria not be better off keeping those who could rebuild it?

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since1953 Maidenhead 13 Sep 15 10.32am
It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is.
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since1953

Maidenhead 13 Sep 15 10.32am

It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is.

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johnfirewall 13 Sep 15 11.11am
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is. Saw a woman on the news saying she wanted to get out to any country. Of course there are people who want more than that but I don't know why everyone else is so keen to give it to them. After all, those accusing everyone else of being uncaring simply point to the fact that they're fleeing war. If you're going to then talk about the hardship in their next country, that could apply to half the world's population.
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johnfirewall

13 Sep 15 11.11am

Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am

Saw a woman on the news saying she wanted to get out to any country.

Of course there are people who want more than that but I don't know why everyone else is so keen to give it to them. After all, those accusing everyone else of being uncaring simply point to the fact that they're fleeing war. If you're going to then talk about the hardship in their next country, that could apply to half the world's population.

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oldcodger 13 Sep 15 11.21am
Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is. If you're escaping war and want to start a new life there's a good argument for not wanting to move right next door to said war. To that extent it is 'shopping', but the term itself is clearly used to trivialise, so let's also recognise that for what it is. Edited by oldcodger (13 Sep 2015 11.21am)
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oldcodger

13 Sep 15 11.21am

Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am

It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is.

If you're escaping war and want to start a new life there's a good argument for not wanting to move right next door to said war. To that extent it is 'shopping', but the term itself is clearly used to trivialise, so let's also recognise that for what it is.

Edited by oldcodger (13 Sep 2015 11.21am)

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Mapletree Croydon 13 Sep 15 11.42am
That sounds an awful lot like capitalism. I won't start debating the benefits to the UK but Would Syria not be better off keeping those who could rebuild it? --------------------------------------------------- How is Syria (whoever that is) going to do that then John? Tell the people who are probably most capable of getting out of a hell hole that no - they can't leave. What are they going to do, shoot them? Oh no, wait, that's what they are already doing. The point about diaspora is that they do come back and they also influence from afar. Not always a good thing given the overseas funding provided to the LTTI and IRA. But for my money the best thing to do is to take the refugees, help them get back on their feet, help them rebuild Syria and then return. In that way the UK gets to influence the longer term of Syria without bombing the sh*t out of it.
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Mapletree

Croydon 13 Sep 15 11.42am

That sounds an awful lot like capitalism.

I won't start debating the benefits to the UK but Would Syria not be better off keeping those who could rebuild it?

---------------------------------------------------

How is Syria (whoever that is) going to do that then John? Tell the people who are probably most capable of getting out of a hell hole that no - they can't leave. What are they going to do, shoot them? Oh no, wait, that's what they are already doing.

The point about diaspora is that they do come back and they also influence from afar. Not always a good thing given the overseas funding provided to the LTTI and IRA. But for my money the best thing to do is to take the refugees, help them get back on their feet, help them rebuild Syria and then return. In that way the UK gets to influence the longer term of Syria without bombing the sh*t out of it.

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01CPFC central coast NSW (The Mariners Mi... 13 Sep 15 11.50am
Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.21am Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is. If you're escaping war and want to start a new life there's a good argument for not wanting to move right next door to said war. To that extent it is 'shopping', but the term itself is clearly used to trivialise, so let's also recognise that for what it is. Edited by oldcodger (13 Sep 2015 11.21am) There seems to be a vast amount of younger men say 18-40yo amongst the refugees,why aren't they staying in their countries and fighting the war. Do they expect other countries to fight their war when they run away. I don't have a problem with women children and the elderly etc,but why are the young men running away. Imagine UK during the war if all the young men capable of fighting ran away,Uk wouldn't be what it is today. Where is the Joker shown, I haven't used it ?
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01CPFC

central coast NSW (The Mariners Mi... 13 Sep 15 11.50am

Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.21am

Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am

Edited by oldcodger (13 Sep 2015 11.21am)

There seems to be a vast amount of younger men say 18-40yo amongst the refugees,why aren't they staying in their countries and fighting the war.
Do they expect other countries to fight their war when they run away.
I don't have a problem with women children and the elderly etc,but why are the young men running away.
Imagine UK during the war if all the young men capable of fighting ran away,Uk wouldn't be what it is today.

Where is the Joker shown, I haven't used it ?

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oldcodger 13 Sep 15 12.09pm
Quote 01CPFC at 13 Sep 2015 11.50am Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.21am Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am It's true that war does not discriminate, however these refugees certainly do. As far as I am aware nobody is shooting at them in any of the neighbouring countries so from that point of view they are safe there. I can't blame them for wanting a better life, but let's recognise this "country shopping" for what it is. If you're escaping war and want to start a new life there's a good argument for not wanting to move right next door to said war. To that extent it is 'shopping', but the term itself is clearly used to trivialise, so let's also recognise that for what it is. Edited by oldcodger (13 Sep 2015 11.21am) There seems to be a vast amount of younger men say 18-40yo amongst the refugees,why aren't they staying in their countries and fighting the war. Do they expect other countries to fight their war when they run away. I don't have a problem with women children and the elderly etc,but why are the young men running away. Imagine UK during the war if all the young men capable of fighting ran away,Uk wouldn't be what it is today. The West has been so active in the middle east over the years, I expect they do.. and they're probably right. As for a situation where hundreds of thousands of women, children and elderly came to Europe without a breadwinner, that would just create a different problem.
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oldcodger

13 Sep 15 12.09pm

Quote 01CPFC at 13 Sep 2015 11.50am

Quote oldcodger at 13 Sep 2015 11.21am

Quote since1953 at 13 Sep 2015 10.32am

Edited by oldcodger (13 Sep 2015 11.21am)

There seems to be a vast amount of younger men say 18-40yo amongst the refugees,why aren't they staying in their countries and fighting the war.
Do they expect other countries to fight their war when they run away.
I don't have a problem with women children and the elderly etc,but why are the young men running away.
Imagine UK during the war if all the young men capable of fighting ran away,Uk wouldn't be what it is today.

The West has been so active in the middle east over the years, I expect they do.. and they're probably right.

As for a situation where hundreds of thousands of women, children and elderly came to Europe without a breadwinner, that would just create a different problem.

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