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steeleye20 Croydon 27 Jul 17 4.12pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays 'Socialist achievements'? what utter tripe. These things are consensual and don't belong to a movement at all. All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.
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steeleye20

Croydon 27 Jul 17 4.12pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'Socialist achievements'? what utter tripe.

These things are consensual and don't belong to a movement at all.

All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.

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Hrolf The Ganger 27 Jul 17 4.29pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments. Isn't that an oxymoron?
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Hrolf The Ganger

27 Jul 17 4.29pm

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Originally posted by steeleye20

All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

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Stirlingsays 27 Jul 17 4.33pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments. Consensual not socialist. The greatest opposition to the nhs came from Doctors who voted 10 to 1 against it in 46. In the post WW2 environment the need to rebuild and heal the nation was high. The Tories initally supported the Doctors of course..Churchill referred to Bevan saying that unless he, 'changes his policy and methods and moves without the slightest delay, he will be as great a curse to his country in time of peace as he was a squalid nuisance in time of war.' Still, they came around and were more about amendments than unaccepting of the need for a national health service. The vote passed 261 votes to 113 on the bill's third reading. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2017 4.34pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Jul 17 4.33pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.

Consensual not socialist.

The greatest opposition to the nhs came from Doctors who voted 10 to 1 against it in 46.

In the post WW2 environment the need to rebuild and heal the nation was high. The Tories initally supported the Doctors of course..Churchill referred to Bevan saying that unless he, 'changes his policy and methods and moves without the slightest delay, he will be as great a curse to his country in time of peace as he was a squalid nuisance in time of war.'

Still, they came around and were more about amendments than unaccepting of the need for a national health service.

The vote passed 261 votes to 113 on the bill's third reading.

Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2017 4.34pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 27 Jul 17 4.40pm
Personally I think the greatest thing that the early socialists achieved was helping in the organizing of unions. Socialism's best usage is in its modification of capitalism. As a system itself it is doomed to failure as are most roads of good intentions that ignore the realities of human nature. The free market has achieved more than socialism. But I won't knock the early socialism that was genuinely interested in helping the working class from the overt exploitation surrounding it. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Jul 17 4.40pm

Personally I think the greatest thing that the early socialists achieved was helping in the organizing of unions.

Socialism's best usage is in its modification of capitalism. As a system itself it is doomed to failure as are most roads of good intentions that ignore the realities of human nature.

The free market has achieved more than socialism.

But I won't knock the early socialism that was genuinely interested in helping the working class from the overt exploitation surrounding it.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 17 5.04pm
You have to admire the bongo film industry. They can create a scud movie on any premise: [Link] True entrepreneurs. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 27 Jul 17 5.04pm

You have to admire the bongo film industry. They can create a scud movie on any premise:

[Link]

True entrepreneurs.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Hrolf The Ganger 27 Jul 17 5.05pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Personally I think the greatest thing that the early socialists achieved was helping in the organizing of unions. Socialism's best usage is in its modification of capitalism. As a system itself it is doomed to failure as are most roads of good intentions that ignore the realities of human nature. The free market has achieved more than socialism. But I won't knock the early socialism that was genuinely interested in helping the working class from the overt exploitation surrounding it. The trouble is that no system serves society entirely. What we expect from a life has to be manufactured somehow by drawing on many systems and ideas. The human condition is singular in this respect as we actually control our environment in a way that no other species we know of does. It is in many ways just a set of fine checks and balances that serve most people most of the time. Of course, there are many who would claim it serves a small minority but this is arguably where Darwinian rules are expressed in human affairs with the abstract notion of equality always playing second fiddle to natural selection.
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Hrolf The Ganger

27 Jul 17 5.05pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Personally I think the greatest thing that the early socialists achieved was helping in the organizing of unions.

Socialism's best usage is in its modification of capitalism. As a system itself it is doomed to failure as are most roads of good intentions that ignore the realities of human nature.

The free market has achieved more than socialism.

But I won't knock the early socialism that was genuinely interested in helping the working class from the overt exploitation surrounding it.

The trouble is that no system serves society entirely.
What we expect from a life has to be manufactured somehow by drawing on many systems and ideas. The human condition is singular in this respect as we actually control our environment in a way that no other species we know of does.
It is in many ways just a set of fine checks and balances that serve most people most of the time. Of course, there are many who would claim it serves a small minority but this is arguably where Darwinian rules are expressed in human affairs with the abstract notion of equality always playing second fiddle to natural selection.

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steeleye20 Croydon 27 Jul 17 5.05pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Personally I think the greatest thing that the early socialists achieved was helping in the organizing of unions. Socialism's best usage is in its modification of capitalism. As a system itself it is doomed to failure as are most roads of good intentions that ignore the realities of human nature. The free market has achieved more than socialism. But I won't knock the early socialism that was genuinely interested in helping the working class from the overt exploitation surrounding it. All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments. No matter how much you post doesn't change the facts.
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steeleye20

Croydon 27 Jul 17 5.05pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Personally I think the greatest thing that the early socialists achieved was helping in the organizing of unions.

Socialism's best usage is in its modification of capitalism. As a system itself it is doomed to failure as are most roads of good intentions that ignore the realities of human nature.

The free market has achieved more than socialism.

But I won't knock the early socialism that was genuinely interested in helping the working class from the overt exploitation surrounding it.

All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.

No matter how much you post doesn't change the facts.

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Hrolf The Ganger 27 Jul 17 5.14pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments. No matter how much you post doesn't change the facts. Oh Yes, I'm sure old Two Jags and Mr Blair himself stayed up all night trying to realise socialist achievements. If you want to extol the virtues of a few good men then please don't pretend that the Labour Party hasn't produced a vast amount of pricks as well.
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Hrolf The Ganger

27 Jul 17 5.14pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.

No matter how much you post doesn't change the facts.

Oh Yes, I'm sure old Two Jags and Mr Blair himself stayed up all night trying to realise socialist achievements.

If you want to extol the virtues of a few good men then please don't pretend that the Labour Party hasn't produced a vast amount of pricks as well.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 17 5.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It's Nickbot time. No doubt another 'unbiased' source. Labour mentals should keep their own house in order. Mind you, the PLP is doing a good job of keeping their 'deeply held beliefs' to themselves since they smelled the tiniest hint of power. Did I hear someone say hypocritical scum? Are you saying the Tories aren't split over Brexit? From the article, based on an article in the Times (yes the are biased)... Speaking anonymously to the paper, a pro-European minister told Sylvester that the concept of a "global Britain" was far-fetched: This row is about the future versus the past. The Brexiteers somehow think we are going to go sailing off into some glorious imperial world without realising that in the modern age we are interdependent. However, the most revealing, and damning take was this one: We are stuck in a ‘damned if we do, damned if we don’t’ bind. If we try to cancel exit we destroy ourselves; if we go ahead with it we destroy the country. People voted for a fantasy.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 17 5.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's Nickbot time.

No doubt another 'unbiased' source.

Labour mentals should keep their own house in order.
Mind you, the PLP is doing a good job of keeping their 'deeply held beliefs' to themselves since they smelled the tiniest hint of power.
Did I hear someone say hypocritical scum?

Are you saying the Tories aren't split over Brexit?
From the article, based on an article in the Times (yes the are biased)...

Speaking anonymously to the paper, a pro-European minister told Sylvester that the concept of a "global Britain" was far-fetched:

This row is about the future versus the past. The Brexiteers somehow think we are going to go sailing off into some glorious imperial world without realising that in the modern age we are interdependent.

However, the most revealing, and damning take was this one:

We are stuck in a ‘damned if we do, damned if we don’t’ bind. If we try to cancel exit we destroy ourselves; if we go ahead with it we destroy the country.

People voted for a fantasy.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 17 5.41pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Oh Yes, I'm sure old Two Jags and Mr Blair himself stayed up all night trying to realise socialist achievements. If you want to extol the virtues of a few good men then please don't pretend that the Labour Party hasn't produced a vast amount of pricks as well. John Prescott who according to Jeremy Hardy, 'Fucked the working class in their own accent.' How many ministerial cars do current cabinet members have at their disposal?
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 17 5.41pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Oh Yes, I'm sure old Two Jags and Mr Blair himself stayed up all night trying to realise socialist achievements.

If you want to extol the virtues of a few good men then please don't pretend that the Labour Party hasn't produced a vast amount of pricks as well.

John Prescott who according to Jeremy Hardy, 'Fucked the working class in their own accent.'

How many ministerial cars do current cabinet members have at their disposal?

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Stirlingsays 27 Jul 17 6.13pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments. No matter how much you post doesn't change the facts. Socialism didn't introduce 'gay marriage' for example did it? Is 'gay marriage' a 'conservative' concept? I think what you define as socialism is very much a selective self identity that ignores many of its faults and trumpets what you see as its positives. Ultimately nothing survives without consensus so your descriptions of 'facts' aren't worthy of the name in my book. Early socialism definitely helped create many improvements for the working class and improved the top down model of capitalism. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2017 6.21pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Jul 17 6.13pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

All socialist achievements having been introduced by labour governments.

No matter how much you post doesn't change the facts.

Socialism didn't introduce 'gay marriage' for example did it? Is 'gay marriage' a 'conservative' concept? I think what you define as socialism is very much a selective self identity that ignores many of its faults and trumpets what you see as its positives.

Ultimately nothing survives without consensus so your descriptions of 'facts' aren't worthy of the name in my book.

Early socialism definitely helped create many improvements for the working class and improved the top down model of capitalism.

Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2017 6.21pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 27 Jul 17 6.16pm
Originally posted by nickgusset John Prescott who according to Jeremy Hardy, 'Fucked the working class in their own accent.' How many ministerial cars do current cabinet members have at their disposal? Man that was funny....my tea nearly went flying. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Jul 17 6.16pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

John Prescott who according to Jeremy Hardy, 'Fucked the working class in their own accent.'

How many ministerial cars do current cabinet members have at their disposal?

Man that was funny....my tea nearly went flying.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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