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Southern Rail Strike - right or wrong

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 06 Feb 17 9.24am
Originally posted by matt_himself This is the bit I am struggling with, if the deal is likely unacceptable to drivers why would ASLEF recommend it? It would put ASLEF in a weak position to recommend a deal which drivers subsequent vote down. Also why would ASLEF cut the RMT out of the deal, given their supposed shared aims of 'safety'? This smells rotten. The reason RMT weren't involved has been explained 3 times on this thread. Why do you keep asking? I think it's all down to trust. The union negotiators are putting faith in Southern to provide 2nd crew members in all but a few services. Drivers however want a guarantee, after being lied to by southern so often and so long I can see why there is no trust. That's why the RMT said it was something of a capitulation by Aslef.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 06 Feb 17 9.24am

Originally posted by matt_himself

This is the bit I am struggling with, if the deal is likely unacceptable to drivers why would ASLEF recommend it? It would put ASLEF in a weak position to recommend a deal which drivers subsequent vote down. Also why would ASLEF cut the RMT out of the deal, given their supposed shared aims of 'safety'?

This smells rotten.

The reason RMT weren't involved has been explained 3 times on this thread. Why do you keep asking?

I think it's all down to trust. The union negotiators are putting faith in Southern to provide 2nd crew members in all but a few services. Drivers however want a guarantee, after being lied to by southern so often and so long I can see why there is no trust. That's why the RMT said it was something of a capitulation by Aslef.

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matt_himself Matataland 06 Feb 17 9.55am
It says in the Guardian that ASLEF have conceded to Southern that drivers will operate doors: [Link] There will be an 'onboard supervisor' but they appear not be guards and will have different responsibilities and training. This appears to be the reason why the RMT was excluded from the deal. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 06 Feb 17 9.55am

It says in the Guardian that ASLEF have conceded to Southern that drivers will operate doors:

[Link]

There will be an 'onboard supervisor' but they appear not be guards and will have different responsibilities and training.

This appears to be the reason why the RMT was excluded from the deal.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Helmet46 Croydon 06 Feb 17 6.13pm
Originally posted by 7mins Do you not think the agreement with ASLEF is all about passenger safety? To me... it totally vindicates their actions. They have refused £££ that Southern have offered them, and secured a deal that protests passenger safety, while not benefiting financially at all. Southern have come out of this bad. They accepted the deal that was offered before the strikes. Southern had the power to avoid the strikes by accepting this deal when first offered. Drivers have lost thousands to secure this deal. They have been rewarded with safer working practices not extra money. Are they not going to be on the same scale as Thameslink and South Eastern which is better for them as part of the deal?
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Helmet46

Croydon 06 Feb 17 6.13pm

Originally posted by 7mins

Do you not think the agreement with ASLEF is all about passenger safety? To me... it totally vindicates their actions. They have refused £££ that Southern have offered them, and secured a deal that protests passenger safety, while not benefiting financially at all. Southern have come out of this bad. They accepted the deal that was offered before the strikes. Southern had the power to avoid the strikes by accepting this deal when first offered.

Drivers have lost thousands to secure this deal. They have been rewarded with safer working practices not extra money.

Are they not going to be on the same scale as Thameslink and South Eastern which is better for them as part of the deal?

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Sportyteacher London 06 Feb 17 6.57pm
Originally posted by Helmet46 Are they not going to be on the same scale as Thameslink and South Eastern which is better for them as part of the deal? And I feel the need to intervene by way of posters' previous summation as to the contribution of Secretary for Transport, Chris Grayling, upon the basis that you contribute via your taxes towards his salary and expected working output that is conducive to elected party manifesto promises. [Link]
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Sportyteacher

London 06 Feb 17 6.57pm

Originally posted by Helmet46

Are they not going to be on the same scale as Thameslink and South Eastern which is better for them as part of the deal?

And I feel the need to intervene by way of posters' previous summation as to the contribution of Secretary for Transport, Chris Grayling, upon the basis that you contribute via your taxes towards his salary and expected working output that is conducive to elected party manifesto promises.

[Link]

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7mins In the bush 06 Feb 17 7.56pm
Originally posted by Helmet46 Are they not going to be on the same scale as Thameslink and South Eastern which is better for them as part of the deal? Southern will get parity with Thameslink. Southeastern have conductors and Sunday in the working week, different rest day pattern.
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7mins

In the bush 06 Feb 17 7.56pm

Originally posted by Helmet46

Are they not going to be on the same scale as Thameslink and South Eastern which is better for them as part of the deal?

Southern will get parity with Thameslink. Southeastern have conductors and Sunday in the working week, different rest day pattern.

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7mins In the bush 06 Feb 17 7.58pm
Originally posted by matt_himself It says in the Guardian that ASLEF have conceded to Southern that drivers will operate doors: [Link] There will be an 'onboard supervisor' but they appear not be guards and will have different responsibilities and training. This appears to be the reason why the RMT was excluded from the deal. ASLEF have got safety critical training for OBS's. Spoke to a Southern manager this morning. They think the deal will be accepted by metro but rejected by coastal drivers.
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7mins

In the bush 06 Feb 17 7.58pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

It says in the Guardian that ASLEF have conceded to Southern that drivers will operate doors:

[Link]

There will be an 'onboard supervisor' but they appear not be guards and will have different responsibilities and training.

This appears to be the reason why the RMT was excluded from the deal.

ASLEF have got safety critical training for OBS's. Spoke to a Southern manager this morning. They think the deal will be accepted by metro but rejected by coastal drivers.

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matt_himself Matataland 06 Feb 17 8.06pm
Originally posted by 7mins ASLEF have got safety critical training for OBS's. Spoke to a Southern manager this morning. They think the deal will be accepted by metro but rejected by coastal drivers. But it says on here, the ASLEF strike was intended to remove Southern's plans to remove 'safety trained guards' from trains: [Link] I am sorry but it really looks from the outside that ASLEF has capitulated to Southern and sold out the RMT. This is from the BBC, which appears to reflect this view: [Link] "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 06 Feb 17 8.06pm

Originally posted by 7mins

ASLEF have got safety critical training for OBS's. Spoke to a Southern manager this morning. They think the deal will be accepted by metro but rejected by coastal drivers.

But it says on here, the ASLEF strike was intended to remove Southern's plans to remove 'safety trained guards' from trains:

[Link]

I am sorry but it really looks from the outside that ASLEF has capitulated to Southern and sold out the RMT. This is from the BBC, which appears to reflect this view:

[Link]

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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7mins In the bush 06 Feb 17 9.32pm
Originally posted by matt_himself But it says on here, the ASLEF strike was intended to remove Southern's plans to remove 'safety trained guards' from trains: [Link] I am sorry but it really looks from the outside that ASLEF has capitulated to Southern and sold out the RMT. This is from the BBC, which appears to reflect this view: [Link] I think both sides have negotiated. This is the deal offered by ASLEF 3 months ago. ASLEF have to represent their members. RMT represent their members. Sympathy strikes are illegal. Edited by 7mins (06 Feb 2017 9.37pm)
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7mins

In the bush 06 Feb 17 9.32pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

But it says on here, the ASLEF strike was intended to remove Southern's plans to remove 'safety trained guards' from trains:

[Link]

I am sorry but it really looks from the outside that ASLEF has capitulated to Southern and sold out the RMT. This is from the BBC, which appears to reflect this view:

[Link]

I think both sides have negotiated. This is the deal offered by ASLEF 3 months ago. ASLEF have to represent their members. RMT represent their members. Sympathy strikes are illegal.

Edited by 7mins (06 Feb 2017 9.37pm)

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7mins In the bush 06 Feb 17 9.40pm
I've a feeling this deal might be rejected. Southern has lost the trust of its employees. This is a case study of how to not conduct industrial relations
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7mins

In the bush 06 Feb 17 9.40pm

I've a feeling this deal might be rejected. Southern has lost the trust of its employees. This is a case study of how to not conduct industrial relations

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Helmet46 Croydon 07 Feb 17 6.08pm
Originally posted by 7mins Southern will get parity with Thameslink. Southeastern have conductors and Sunday in the working week, different rest day pattern. Is that not better, then? I thought Thameslink terms were better so are they not going to get more?
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Helmet46

Croydon 07 Feb 17 6.08pm

Originally posted by 7mins

Southern will get parity with Thameslink. Southeastern have conductors and Sunday in the working week, different rest day pattern.

Is that not better, then? I thought Thameslink terms were better so are they not going to get more?

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7mins In the bush 07 Feb 17 8.20pm
Originally posted by Helmet46 Is that not better, then? I thought Thameslink terms were better so are they not going to get more? At my time of leaving the industry, Thameslink had better T&C's. I think the wages are the same. (Or minimal difference)
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7mins

In the bush 07 Feb 17 8.20pm

Originally posted by Helmet46

Is that not better, then? I thought Thameslink terms were better so are they not going to get more?

At my time of leaving the industry, Thameslink had better T&C's.
I think the wages are the same. (Or minimal difference)

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mezzer Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 17 Feb 17 9.12am
Originally posted by 7mins I've a feeling this deal might be rejected. Southern has lost the trust of its employees. This is a case study of how to not conduct industrial relations You were right. So now the drivers have rejected their union, where do we go from here? Not very far on a train I fear. Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.
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mezzer

Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 17 Feb 17 9.12am

Originally posted by 7mins

I've a feeling this deal might be rejected. Southern has lost the trust of its employees. This is a case study of how to not conduct industrial relations

You were right.

So now the drivers have rejected their union, where do we go from here?

Not very far on a train I fear.

Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

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