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matt_himself Matataland 28 Jul 14 8.53am | |
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Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 8.34am
Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 8.30am
Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 8.12am
Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 6.49am
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm
Absolute bollocks matt.
You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim. Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)
One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes. Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm) If only everything in life were as simple as it is on Planet Gusset. You have yet again twisted my words for your own agenda. I said that it is not in the interests of many groups and countries to end the suffering of Gaza. I stand by this. If it were, why the Arab World not making more of an effort? Why are countries with real Global clout, such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not pushing harder for a resolution? I also maintain that a government with a less intransigent outlook, one that is not committed to the destruction of Israel and as many Jews as it can along the way, would have negotiated more with Israel and less rockets would be fired into Israel, thus meaning the Israeli government would be more likely to negotiate and make concessions. You are blinkered Gusset. And prejudiced. But don't let that stop you.
Edited by nickgusset (28 Jul 2014 8.12am)
Nowhere have I ever said such stuff and you are continuing to make yourself look ridiculous by spouting it. I am offering you a viewpoint, one you can only respond too by trying to land cheap shots. You are prejudiced against Israel. It is apparent in every word you write. All those SWP banners and leaflets appear to have got to you.
Yes I have and I don't think I am.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Mapletree Croydon 28 Jul 14 8.56am | |
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Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 8.24am
Journalist Noam Sheizaf, eloquent and unbiased, writes: "I know of many Palestinians who do not like Hamas. Yet for them, the Gaza war is about the siege – part of their own war of independence. Israelis refuse to get that. In The Fog of War, Errol Morris’ excellent documentary, former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara speaks about a certain inability to understand the enemy – one that stems from a lack of empathy. In the film, McNamara, a brilliant systems analyst, who is today associated more than anything with the Vietnam War, says that part of President Kennedy’s successful management of the Cuban Missile Crisis was his administration’s ability to put itself in the shoes of the Soviets and understand their point of view. “In the case of Vietnam,” he says, “we didn’t know them well enough to empathize.” As a result, each side had a completely different understanding of what the war was about. This understanding came to McNamara only in 1991, when he visited Vietnam and met with the country’s foreign minister. McNamara asked the foreign minister whether he thought it was possible to reach the same results of the war (independence and uniting the south with the north) without the heavy losses. Between one and three million people died in the war, most of them Vietnamese civilians. This does not include the hundreds of thousands of casualties in the war against the French, which took place shortly before. Approximately 58,000 American soldiers were also killed in the Vietnam War. “You were fighting to enslave us,” yelled the foreign minister at McNamara, who in turn replied that that is an absurd notion. The two nearly came to blows. But as time passed McNamara understood. “We saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War,” he says, whereas what the foreign minister was trying to tell him was that for the Vietnamese it was a war of independence. Communism was not the heart of the matter for the Vietnamese. They were willing to make the worst sacrifices because they were fighting for their freedom – not for Marx or Brezhnev. Nations will make inconceivable sacrifices in these kinds of struggles. An entire one percent of the Jewish population was killed in the 1948 war. The public accepted it painfully and with a stiff upper lip because they felt, just like the Vietnamese, that they were fighting for their lives and for their freedom. We have become so much more susceptible to loss, not because we went soft, but because we have a deeper understanding that despite all the “we’re fighting for our future” slogans, 2014 is not 1948. Over 2,000 Palestinians were killed in all three military operations in Gaza, not including the Second Intifada. Most of them were civilians. I’ve exchanged emails with people in Gaza in the past few days. These are people who don’t care much for Hamas in their everyday lives, whether due to its fundamentalist ideology, political oppression or other aspects of its rule. But they do support Hamas in its war against Israel; for them, fighting the siege is their war of independence. Or at least one part of it. The demand that the people of Gaza protest against Hamas, often heard in Israel today, is absurd. Even if we disregard the fact that Israelis themselves hate protests in times of war, they still expect the Palestinians to conduct a civil uprising under fire. The people of Gaza support Hamas in its war against Israel because they perceive it to be part of their war of independence. A Hamas warrior who swears by the Quran is no different from a Vietcong reciting The Internationale before leaving for battle. These kind of rituals leave a strong impression, but they are not the real story. Israelis, both left and right, are wrong to assume that Hamas is a dictatorship fighting Israel against its people’s will. Hamas is indeed a dictatorship, and there are many Palestinians who would gladly see it fall, but not at this moment in time. Right now I have no doubt that most Palestinians support the attacks on IDF soldiers entering Gaza; they support kidnapping as means to release their prisoners (whom they see as prisoners of war) and the unpleasant fact is that most of them, I believe, support firing rockets at Israel. “If we had planes and tanks to fight the IDF, we wouldn’t need to fire rockets,” is a sentence I have heard more than once. As an Israeli, it is unpleasant for me to hear, but one needs to at least try and understand what lies behind such a position. What is certain is that bombing Gaza will not change their minds. On the contrary. “But if they didn’t fire rockets or launch terror attacks there would be no siege. So what do they want?” the Israeli public asks. After all, we already left Gaza. Back to McNamara and The Fog of War. If the citizens of Vietnam would have abandoned Communism, McNamara told the Vietnamese foreign minister 1991, the U.S. wouldn’t have even cared about them. They could have had both their independence and their unity. But in the eyes of the Vietnamese, things looked completely different. As soon as they managed to drive out the French, in marched the Americans. Colonialism simply never stopped. The choice was between a corrupt U.S.-sponsored regime in the south and a horrific war with the north. For the Palestinians, the choice is between occupation by proxy in the West Bank and a war in Gaza. Both offer no hope, and neither are forms of freedom. The Israeli promise — that an end to armed struggle will bring freedom — is not trustworthy, as the experiences of past years has shown. It simply never happens. The quiet years in the West Bank have not brought the Palestinians any closer to an independent state, while the truce in between wars in Gaza has not brought about a relief from the siege. One can debate the reasons for why this happened, but one cannot debate reality. Hamas tells the Palestinians the simple truth: freedom comes at the cost of blood. The tragedy is that we usually provide the evidence. After all, the evacuation of settlements in Gaza came after the Second Intifada, not as a result of negotiations. The Oslo Accords came after the First Intifada; before that, Israel turned down even the convenient London Agreement between Shimon Peres and Jordan’s King Hussein. Israelis are convinced they are fighting a terror organization driven by a fundamentalist Islamic ideology. Palestinians are convinced Israelis are looking to enslave them, and that as soon as the war is over the siege will be reinforced. Since this is exactly what Israel intends to do, as our government has repeatedly stated, they have no reason to stop fighting. Hamas may accept a ceasefire soon. Its regime might collapse. Either way, it is only a matter of time before the next round of violence. Human lives are not cheaper for Palestinians than they are for us. But nations fighting for their freedom will endure the worst sacrifices. " Great post Kerms In the end dig beneath the religious bigotry and you will usually find self interest and an inability to see the others' point of view.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 28 Jul 14 10.06am | |
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Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 8.53am
Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 8.34am
Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 8.30am
Quote nickgusset at 28 Jul 2014 8.12am
Quote matt_himself at 28 Jul 2014 6.49am
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 10.34pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 9.39pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 9.34pm
Absolute bollocks matt.
You are just reinforcing the view that you are a bit dim. Edited by matt_himself (27 Jul 2014 9.39pm)
One just hopes that the more moderate Jewish voices in Israel will be listened to and that Netanyahu and Co are tried for war crimes. Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 10.36pm) If only everything in life were as simple as it is on Planet Gusset. You have yet again twisted my words for your own agenda. I said that it is not in the interests of many groups and countries to end the suffering of Gaza. I stand by this. If it were, why the Arab World not making more of an effort? Why are countries with real Global clout, such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not pushing harder for a resolution? I also maintain that a government with a less intransigent outlook, one that is not committed to the destruction of Israel and as many Jews as it can along the way, would have negotiated more with Israel and less rockets would be fired into Israel, thus meaning the Israeli government would be more likely to negotiate and make concessions. You are blinkered Gusset. And prejudiced. But don't let that stop you.
Edited by nickgusset (28 Jul 2014 8.12am)
Nowhere have I ever said such stuff and you are continuing to make yourself look ridiculous by spouting it. I am offering you a viewpoint, one you can only respond too by trying to land cheap shots. You are prejudiced against Israel. It is apparent in every word you write. All those SWP banners and leaflets appear to have got to you.
Yes I have and I don't think I am. I'm not going to let this descend into another dull tit for tat. You have ignored my comments about wanting a peaceful solution for both sides, that I am against both Hamas and the right wing Israeli government but not against Jewish people. That's up to you. You disagree with everything I say to fit in with your obvious paranoia of anything vaguely left wing. If I said Tony Pulis was the Palace manager you would question it. Edited by nickgusset (28 Jul 2014 10.06am)
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serial thriller The Promised Land 28 Jul 14 10.18am | |
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Quote Kermit8 at 28 Jul 2014 8.24am
Journalist Noam Sheizaf, eloquent and unbiased, writes: "I know of many Palestinians who do not like Hamas. Yet for them, the Gaza war is about the siege – part of their own war of independence. Israelis refuse to get that. In The Fog of War, Errol Morris’ excellent documentary, former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara speaks about a certain inability to understand the enemy – one that stems from a lack of empathy. In the film, McNamara, a brilliant systems analyst, who is today associated more than anything with the Vietnam War, says that part of President Kennedy’s successful management of the Cuban Missile Crisis was his administration’s ability to put itself in the shoes of the Soviets and understand their point of view. “In the case of Vietnam,” he says, “we didn’t know them well enough to empathize.” As a result, each side had a completely different understanding of what the war was about. This understanding came to McNamara only in 1991, when he visited Vietnam and met with the country’s foreign minister. McNamara asked the foreign minister whether he thought it was possible to reach the same results of the war (independence and uniting the south with the north) without the heavy losses. Between one and three million people died in the war, most of them Vietnamese civilians. This does not include the hundreds of thousands of casualties in the war against the French, which took place shortly before. Approximately 58,000 American soldiers were also killed in the Vietnam War. “You were fighting to enslave us,” yelled the foreign minister at McNamara, who in turn replied that that is an absurd notion. The two nearly came to blows. But as time passed McNamara understood. “We saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War,” he says, whereas what the foreign minister was trying to tell him was that for the Vietnamese it was a war of independence. Communism was not the heart of the matter for the Vietnamese. They were willing to make the worst sacrifices because they were fighting for their freedom – not for Marx or Brezhnev. Nations will make inconceivable sacrifices in these kinds of struggles. An entire one percent of the Jewish population was killed in the 1948 war. The public accepted it painfully and with a stiff upper lip because they felt, just like the Vietnamese, that they were fighting for their lives and for their freedom. We have become so much more susceptible to loss, not because we went soft, but because we have a deeper understanding that despite all the “we’re fighting for our future” slogans, 2014 is not 1948. Over 2,000 Palestinians were killed in all three military operations in Gaza, not including the Second Intifada. Most of them were civilians. I’ve exchanged emails with people in Gaza in the past few days. These are people who don’t care much for Hamas in their everyday lives, whether due to its fundamentalist ideology, political oppression or other aspects of its rule. But they do support Hamas in its war against Israel; for them, fighting the siege is their war of independence. Or at least one part of it. The demand that the people of Gaza protest against Hamas, often heard in Israel today, is absurd. Even if we disregard the fact that Israelis themselves hate protests in times of war, they still expect the Palestinians to conduct a civil uprising under fire. The people of Gaza support Hamas in its war against Israel because they perceive it to be part of their war of independence. A Hamas warrior who swears by the Quran is no different from a Vietcong reciting The Internationale before leaving for battle. These kind of rituals leave a strong impression, but they are not the real story. Israelis, both left and right, are wrong to assume that Hamas is a dictatorship fighting Israel against its people’s will. Hamas is indeed a dictatorship, and there are many Palestinians who would gladly see it fall, but not at this moment in time. Right now I have no doubt that most Palestinians support the attacks on IDF soldiers entering Gaza; they support kidnapping as means to release their prisoners (whom they see as prisoners of war) and the unpleasant fact is that most of them, I believe, support firing rockets at Israel. “If we had planes and tanks to fight the IDF, we wouldn’t need to fire rockets,” is a sentence I have heard more than once. As an Israeli, it is unpleasant for me to hear, but one needs to at least try and understand what lies behind such a position. What is certain is that bombing Gaza will not change their minds. On the contrary. “But if they didn’t fire rockets or launch terror attacks there would be no siege. So what do they want?” the Israeli public asks. After all, we already left Gaza. Back to McNamara and The Fog of War. If the citizens of Vietnam would have abandoned Communism, McNamara told the Vietnamese foreign minister 1991, the U.S. wouldn’t have even cared about them. They could have had both their independence and their unity. But in the eyes of the Vietnamese, things looked completely different. As soon as they managed to drive out the French, in marched the Americans. Colonialism simply never stopped. The choice was between a corrupt U.S.-sponsored regime in the south and a horrific war with the north. For the Palestinians, the choice is between occupation by proxy in the West Bank and a war in Gaza. Both offer no hope, and neither are forms of freedom. The Israeli promise — that an end to armed struggle will bring freedom — is not trustworthy, as the experiences of past years has shown. It simply never happens. The quiet years in the West Bank have not brought the Palestinians any closer to an independent state, while the truce in between wars in Gaza has not brought about a relief from the siege. One can debate the reasons for why this happened, but one cannot debate reality. Hamas tells the Palestinians the simple truth: freedom comes at the cost of blood. The tragedy is that we usually provide the evidence. After all, the evacuation of settlements in Gaza came after the Second Intifada, not as a result of negotiations. The Oslo Accords came after the First Intifada; before that, Israel turned down even the convenient London Agreement between Shimon Peres and Jordan’s King Hussein. Israelis are convinced they are fighting a terror organization driven by a fundamentalist Islamic ideology. Palestinians are convinced Israelis are looking to enslave them, and that as soon as the war is over the siege will be reinforced. Since this is exactly what Israel intends to do, as our government has repeatedly stated, they have no reason to stop fighting. Hamas may accept a ceasefire soon. Its regime might collapse. Either way, it is only a matter of time before the next round of violence. Human lives are not cheaper for Palestinians than they are for us. But nations fighting for their freedom will endure the worst sacrifices. "
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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urbreathstinksm8 london 28 Jul 14 2.08pm | |
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Here is Jon snow's report on the child victims in Palestine.
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Stirlingsays 28 Jul 14 2.14pm | |
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Quote dannyh at 28 Jul 2014 7.43am
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 12.07am
Quote nickgusset at 26 Jul 2014 11.51pm
This showed up on Twitter. Stirling, did you write it.? Maybe you should be explaining why you haven't posted against the posters on here supporting Hamas's constitution. Personally I do feel there has been anti semitism on this thread....Maybe not from you (after you stated you don't support Hamas firing rockets) but from certain others . I don't support any innocent dying......This action led to that.....Attacks upon facilities that should be safe need to be investigated. However support for Hamas.....That you somehow seem not to have read on this thread.....Is also wrong headed.....And most have stayed silent.
Edited by dannyh (28 Jul 2014 7.45am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 28 Jul 14 2.59pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 28 Jul 2014 2.14pm
Quote dannyh at 28 Jul 2014 7.43am
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 12.07am
Quote nickgusset at 26 Jul 2014 11.51pm
This showed up on Twitter. Stirling, did you write it.? Maybe you should be explaining why you haven't posted against the posters on here supporting Hamas's constitution. Personally I do feel there has been anti semitism on this thread....Maybe not from you (after you stated you don't support Hamas firing rockets) but from certain others . I don't support any innocent dying......This action led to that.....Attacks upon facilities that should be safe need to be investigated. However support for Hamas.....That you somehow seem not to have read on this thread.....Is also wrong headed.....And most have stayed silent.
Edited by dannyh (28 Jul 2014 7.45am)
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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 28 Jul 14 4.23pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 28 Jul 2014 2.14pm
Quote dannyh at 28 Jul 2014 7.43am
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 12.07am
Quote nickgusset at 26 Jul 2014 11.51pm
This showed up on Twitter. Stirling, did you write it.? Maybe you should be explaining why you haven't posted against the posters on here supporting Hamas's constitution. Personally I do feel there has been anti semitism on this thread....Maybe not from you (after you stated you don't support Hamas firing rockets) but from certain others . I don't support any innocent dying......This action led to that.....Attacks upon facilities that should be safe need to be investigated. However support for Hamas.....That you somehow seem not to have read on this thread.....Is also wrong headed.....And most have stayed silent.
Edited by dannyh (28 Jul 2014 7.45am)
My point is that no such thing happened here, yet innocent children where targeted by Israel on purpose while the rest of the world (and you it would seem) shrug their collective shoulders and say "it's all HAMA's fault." for lobbing over a few unguided rockets, which by the way are about as effective a weapon as a wet piece of lettuce since the US financed their air defence system based on patriot. Meanwhile the death toll of children just keeps going up and up in Gaza, why don’t you stop being king Canute for one minute and watch Dan Snow’s report, then tell me Israel aren’t the archetypal school ground bully going around killing who they like completely and utterly unchecked. I know and understand (even though according to you I’m illiterate) that HAMAS are no Angles but comparatively speaking, the Israeli armed forces makes HAMAS look like Mrs Doubtfire on prozac.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Stirlingsays 28 Jul 14 7.04pm | |
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Quote dannyh at 28 Jul 2014 4.23pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 28 Jul 2014 2.14pm
Quote dannyh at 28 Jul 2014 7.43am
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 12.07am
Quote nickgusset at 26 Jul 2014 11.51pm
This showed up on Twitter. Stirling, did you write it.? Maybe you should be explaining why you haven't posted against the posters on here supporting Hamas's constitution. Personally I do feel there has been anti semitism on this thread....Maybe not from you (after you stated you don't support Hamas firing rockets) but from certain others . I don't support any innocent dying......This action led to that.....Attacks upon facilities that should be safe need to be investigated. However support for Hamas.....That you somehow seem not to have read on this thread.....Is also wrong headed.....And most have stayed silent.
Edited by dannyh (28 Jul 2014 7.45am)
My point is that no such thing happened here, yet innocent children where targeted by Israel on purpose while the rest of the world (and you it would seem) shrug their collective shoulders and say "it's all HAMA's fault." for lobbing over a few unguided rockets, which by the way are about as effective a weapon as a wet piece of lettuce since the US financed their air defence system based on patriot. Meanwhile the death toll of children just keeps going up and up in Gaza, why don’t you stop being king Canute for one minute and watch Dan Snow’s report, then tell me Israel aren’t the archetypal school ground bully going around killing who they like completely and utterly unchecked. I know and understand (even though according to you I’m illiterate) that HAMAS are no Angles but comparatively speaking, the Israeli armed forces makes HAMAS look like Mrs Doubtfire on prozac. I'm a busy man....Requiring me to watch links you post just because you can't be bothered to expand on their contents in the post isn't really my fault.....Sorry, but I genuinely didn't have time. Do we really have to repeat arguments on this thread? Do we really have to go around and around the same debating tree? With respect I think you're kind of not really been fair on what I said earlier. Firstly....I made the point that Hamas could have been firing from near the hospital as a tactic. Not sure I said from inside the hospital. I said Hamas could have fired into the hospital themselves. Secondly I said the most likely scenario was Israeli fire, either stray fire or deliberate. I complained that people made their minds up too soon without knowing the final facts. I criticised this mindset because it's typical of the kind of emotional knee jerk thinking that this conflict doesn't need. Thirdly I stated that any deliberate fire upon UN facilities should result in action against the actors involved. If the IDF are responsible I think they should answer for it. Though there are questions about bias around UN staff, the facilities have to be safe for civilians. So essentially You weren't really fair in your post with my opinions or didn't bother to read them all before typing your post. You seem to think that Israel deliberately wishes to target children. Is it fair to blame a nation for the actions of individuals in an army?.....Many Israelis are against this action...I'm against it myself. Every armed conscription force and even professional ones have bad apples....Especially a conscription one like the IDF with its 'idealogs' happily signing up. Every force contains hot heads and trigger happy nutters within it or those that are so easily stressed that they will pull the trigger at the first sighting without processing the situation.....I'm not going to defend the decisions of soldiers in the front line or condemn them (unless I actually know what happened). But I do ask for investigation and action....And I do think that is appropriate. Your post is well laid out, though I think your point that (HAMAS are no 'Angles') is kind of like saying that Nazis have a sociability problem. Still, you obviously care about injustice and on that front I do recognise that this situation isn't how it should be. But our answers to the issues are obviously different. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Jul 2014 7.08pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 28 Jul 14 7.28pm | |
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Just caught the Israeli ambassador on Channel 5 news, it was embarrassing. Showing exactly how out of kilter Isreal is with Global opinion. Only Putin must be happy as it is taking the spotlight off him.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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Kermit8 Hevon 28 Jul 14 8.12pm | |
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Stirling - Danny's 'Jon Snow' link is well worth watching. Only three minutes.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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legaleagle 28 Jul 14 8.41pm | |
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Quote pefwin at 28 Jul 2014 7.28pm
Just caught the Israeli ambassador on Channel 5 news, it was embarrassing. Showing exactly how out of kilter Isreal is with Global opinion. Only Putin must be happy as it is taking the spotlight off him.
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