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CambridgeEagle Sydenham 13 Jul 17 5.09pm
Originally posted by Hansy I am sure I saw somewhere that it was the Labour party under Tony Blair that allowed Councils to do the fire inspections instead of the Fire Service. It is also the duty of the construction company to abide by building regulations, if this material was against this then it is the construction company's fault. Trying to find a way that the PM or her governing body are in any way criminals or guilt because of this incident is quite silly. If it was a Labour government I will be saying the same thing. It's like me knowing there is a law not to stab someone, but I'm going to do it anyway = That is still my fault. The cuts were made during the Cameron government. But the Cuts would not have made the Fire fighters get there any quicker. I will also add it is pretty fcking stupid the Local government will not be monitoring tower blocks like this. Edited by Hansy (13 Jul 2017 11.33am) In 1986, Thatcher’s government changed building regulations surrounding materials used on the outside of buildings. And these alterations meant that anything used did not have to be non-combustible. This meant flammable materials could legally be used to clad tower blocks. In 2005, Labour changed regulations for inspecting buildings for fire safety. This duty was taken away from the fire brigade and given to a “responsible person”. The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 changed fire inspection and safety duties to a “responsible person”. But this was not fully applicable to domestic premises such as Grenfell Tower. Where it was applicable, the “responsible person” became the local authority. The 2013 Coroner’s Report following the Lakanal House fire criticises the then Communities Secretary Eric Pickles and the coalition government for not dealing with “uncertainty about the scope of inspection for fire risk assessment purposes which should be undertaken in high rise residential buildings”. It said the government needed to provide “clear guidance” on this; something which didn’t happen and which the Fire Sector Federation said in 2015 was still “long overdue an overhaul”. This government have repeatedly ignored warnings that fire regulations needed updating. And they have failed to act on advice from parliamentary groups and industry professionals. This crime was wholly avoidable if government had taken the responsible steps rather than sitting on their hands for fear of upsetting powerful property industry lobbies. It's interesting to note that property companies were the Tories largest source of corporate donations in the run up to the recent election. The industry gave Labour £8,500. Who do you think the Tories really represent? It will be the same on Brexit. They will act in the interests of those who provide their funding - large* corporations and wealthy individuals. Edited by CambridgeEagle (13 Jul 2017 5.10pm)
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CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 13 Jul 17 5.09pm

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Originally posted by Hansy

I am sure I saw somewhere that it was the Labour party under Tony Blair that allowed Councils to do the fire inspections instead of the Fire Service.

It is also the duty of the construction company to abide by building regulations, if this material was against this then it is the construction company's fault.

Trying to find a way that the PM or her governing body are in any way criminals or guilt because of this incident is quite silly. If it was a Labour government I will be saying the same thing. It's like me knowing there is a law not to stab someone, but I'm going to do it anyway = That is still my fault.

The cuts were made during the Cameron government. But the Cuts would not have made the Fire fighters get there any quicker.

I will also add it is pretty f*cking stupid the Local government will not be monitoring tower blocks like this.

Edited by Hansy (13 Jul 2017 11.33am)

In 1986, Thatcher’s government changed building regulations surrounding materials used on the outside of buildings. And these alterations meant that anything used did not have to be non-combustible. This meant flammable materials could legally be used to clad tower blocks.

In 2005, Labour changed regulations for inspecting buildings for fire safety. This duty was taken away from the fire brigade and given to a “responsible person”. The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 changed fire inspection and safety duties to a “responsible person”. But this was not fully applicable to domestic premises such as Grenfell Tower. Where it was applicable, the “responsible person” became the local authority.

The 2013 Coroner’s Report following the Lakanal House fire criticises the then Communities Secretary Eric Pickles and the coalition government for not dealing with “uncertainty about the scope of inspection for fire risk assessment purposes which should be undertaken in high rise residential buildings”. It said the government needed to provide “clear guidance” on this; something which didn’t happen and which the Fire Sector Federation said in 2015 was still “long overdue an overhaul”.

This government have repeatedly ignored warnings that fire regulations needed updating. And they have failed to act on advice from parliamentary groups and industry professionals.

This crime was wholly avoidable if government had taken the responsible steps rather than sitting on their hands for fear of upsetting powerful property industry lobbies. It's interesting to note that property companies were the Tories largest source of corporate donations in the run up to the recent election. The industry gave Labour £8,500. Who do you think the Tories really represent?

It will be the same on Brexit. They will act in the interests of those who provide their funding - large corporations and wealthy individuals.

Edited by CambridgeEagle (13 Jul 2017 5.10pm)

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Hansy 13 Jul 17 5.28pm
Parliament, local government and the construction company are to blame, not the current government. The refurbishment was added to Grenfell around the same time May and her new government took power. To say it's their direct fault is being short sighted and political point scoring. Its a cross party disaster. As you rightly pointed out in your article posted. It's a crime, that someone/s should be paying for. A cross party agreement on the inquest needs to happen also. Edited by Hansy (13 Jul 2017 5.34pm)
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Hansy

13 Jul 17 5.28pm

Parliament, local government and the construction company are to blame, not the current government. The refurbishment was added to Grenfell around the same time May and her new government took power. To say it's their direct fault is being short sighted and political point scoring.

Its a cross party disaster. As you rightly pointed out in your article posted.

It's a crime, that someone/s should be paying for. A cross party agreement on the inquest needs to happen also.

Edited by Hansy (13 Jul 2017 5.34pm)

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Hansy 13 Jul 17 5.34pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle It's in Labour's interests to get rid of the Tories whatever their individual feelings about Brexit. Every party will vote against the Tory/DUP alliance and some Tories will vote against one of these bills at some point. The view within the Tory party on Europe is so strongly polarised they can't possibly appease both wings. This will force May out, force another election and there is no Tory with wide appeal and the country is fed up of Tory austerity and their attitude towards Brexit and most other issues. You've not really explained why it will be a s*it show to those who voted remain... Looking at it objectively it's been a farce. The Tories have no clue what they are doing and are constantly briefing against one another. They have no policy, no clue, no idea what deal they want, no idea what "no deal" looks like. It's frankly quite worrying. As previously stated I was a reluctant remainer, but in the right hands think Brexit could be successful. These aren't the right hands. They are dangerous. But Labour recently voted against their own policy of staying in the single market. How do you explain that? You say the Tories are confused on how to appease both wings, that's because they are the ones actually negotiating it. Labour aren't negotiating it but are still split. Every party won't vote against it. If that is the case, we will have seen more people in favour of Chucka's proposal. Chucka split the party, Corbyn sacked some front benchers too, this will be dire for Labour if they do come in to power. It may force May out if what you say actually happens. But then the Tories will have a much stronger candidate and Labour will be stuck with Corbyn who with an excellent campaign couldn't beat a absolutely terrible campaign ran by May. I say stuck because half Labour MPs don't agree with him.
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Hansy

13 Jul 17 5.34pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

It's in Labour's interests to get rid of the Tories whatever their individual feelings about Brexit.

Every party will vote against the Tory/DUP alliance and some Tories will vote against one of these bills at some point. The view within the Tory party on Europe is so strongly polarised they can't possibly appease both wings.

This will force May out, force another election and there is no Tory with wide appeal and the country is fed up of Tory austerity and their attitude towards Brexit and most other issues.

You've not really explained why it will be a s*it show to those who voted remain... Looking at it objectively it's been a farce. The Tories have no clue what they are doing and are constantly briefing against one another. They have no policy, no clue, no idea what deal they want, no idea what "no deal" looks like. It's frankly quite worrying. As previously stated I was a reluctant remainer, but in the right hands think Brexit could be successful. These aren't the right hands. They are dangerous.

But Labour recently voted against their own policy of staying in the single market. How do you explain that? You say the Tories are confused on how to appease both wings, that's because they are the ones actually negotiating it. Labour aren't negotiating it but are still split.

Every party won't vote against it. If that is the case, we will have seen more people in favour of Chucka's proposal. Chucka split the party, Corbyn sacked some front benchers too, this will be dire for Labour if they do come in to power.

It may force May out if what you say actually happens. But then the Tories will have a much stronger candidate and Labour will be stuck with Corbyn who with an excellent campaign couldn't beat a absolutely terrible campaign ran by May. I say stuck because half Labour MPs don't agree with him.

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 6.09pm
Brexit will....in my view...be successful...compared to staying in....It might take some time but ultimately I think that's highly likely.....That's if we leave...with all the hand tying BS going on by tacid remainers it's open to question. When you look at the EU, it's a walking economic disaster waiting to happen propped up by idealists who are creating far more harm than good.....good intentions or not. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 6.10pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 17 6.09pm

Brexit will....in my view...be successful...compared to staying in....It might take some time but ultimately I think that's highly likely.....That's if we leave...with all the hand tying BS going on by tacid remainers it's open to question.

When you look at the EU, it's a walking economic disaster waiting to happen propped up by idealists who are creating far more harm than good.....good intentions or not.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 6.10pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 13 Jul 17 6.13pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Brexit will....in my view...be successful...compared to staying in....It might take some time but ultimately I think that's highly likely.....That's if we leave...with all the hand tying BS going on by tacid remainers it's open to question. When you look at the EU, it's a walking economic disaster waiting to happen propped up by idealists who are creating far more harm than good.....good intentions or not. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 6.10pm) Emotive nonsense. It's a very powerful trading bloc. The most powerful in the world. It's going to take a lot to topple it. But then why would we want it to fail? It will only harm us even more if it does. And you and I will be six feet under if Brexit ever becomes a success compared to the now. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 13 Jul 17 6.13pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

When you look at the EU, it's a walking economic disaster waiting to happen propped up by idealists who are creating far more harm than good.....good intentions or not.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 6.10pm)

Emotive nonsense. It's a very powerful trading bloc. The most powerful in the world. It's going to take a lot to topple it. But then why would we want it to fail? It will only harm us even more if it does.

And you and I will be six feet under if Brexit ever becomes a success compared to the now.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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steeleye20 Croydon 13 Jul 17 6.21pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Brexit will....in my view...be successful...compared to staying in....It might take some time but ultimately I think that's highly likely.....That's if we leave...with all the hand tying BS going on by tacid remainers it's open to question. When you look at the EU, it's a walking economic disaster waiting to happen propped up by idealists who are creating far more harm than good.....good intentions or not. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 6.10pm) Why do you look at the EU at all? Shouldn't you be looking at the UK as a 'walking financial disaster'. The UK is bankrupt cannot pay its debts. Its for the EU to manage its own future it doesn't need advice from the UK. Remember when the UK would lecture the EU about its successful economy what does it look like now.
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steeleye20

Croydon 13 Jul 17 6.21pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

When you look at the EU, it's a walking economic disaster waiting to happen propped up by idealists who are creating far more harm than good.....good intentions or not.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jul 2017 6.10pm)

Why do you look at the EU at all?

Shouldn't you be looking at the UK as a 'walking financial disaster'.

The UK is bankrupt cannot pay its debts.

Its for the EU to manage its own future it doesn't need advice from the UK.

Remember when the UK would lecture the EU about its successful economy what does it look like now.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 13 Jul 17 6.25pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle These failings aren't mere incompetence. They are part of an active drive to reduce the influence of the state and give corporations free rein. The very thing you said was a universal good. I'm not the one who made such a statement you were. I merely pointed out an example which exposed the inaccuracy of what you say. I don't want a totalitarian state, but it's government's responsibility to provide public goods but also intervene where markets are inefficient and to redress the imbalances in society and tackle social and economic inefficiencies such as high levels of inequality. Free markets don't do this. No, they are failings of government, they were responsible for the activities you list, not private business. I didn't say anything was a universal good - nothing is. I do say that businesses and market forces are better at doing things than the government. In your set up, who intervenes where services are inefficient and where there are imbalances in society (whatever that really means). Are inequalities causes of economic inefficiency? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 13 Jul 17 6.25pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

These failings aren't mere incompetence. They are part of an active drive to reduce the influence of the state and give corporations free rein. The very thing you said was a universal good.

I'm not the one who made such a statement you were. I merely pointed out an example which exposed the inaccuracy of what you say.

I don't want a totalitarian state, but it's government's responsibility to provide public goods but also intervene where markets are inefficient and to redress the imbalances in society and tackle social and economic inefficiencies such as high levels of inequality. Free markets don't do this.

No, they are failings of government, they were responsible for the activities you list, not private business. I didn't say anything was a universal good - nothing is. I do say that businesses and market forces are better at doing things than the government. In your set up, who intervenes where services are inefficient and where there are imbalances in society (whatever that really means). Are inequalities causes of economic inefficiency?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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europalace Europe 13 Jul 17 6.42pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Emotive nonsense. It's a very powerful trading bloc. The most powerful in the world. It's going to take a lot to topple it. But then why would we want it to fail? It will only harm us even more if it does. And you and I will be six feet under if Brexit ever becomes a success compared to the now. The EU has a GDP 50% larger than that of China and 7 times larger than the UK.
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europalace

Europe 13 Jul 17 6.42pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

And you and I will be six feet under if Brexit ever becomes a success compared to the now.

The EU has a GDP 50% larger than that of China and 7 times larger than the UK.

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 6.49pm
Originally posted by europalace The EU has a GDP 50% larger than that of China and 7 times larger than the UK. Well, a union isn't a country of course...even though disasters like you would no doubt have it as one. Those statistics are no doubt complied with the UK within them....We are one of only three net contributors. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 17 6.49pm

Originally posted by europalace

The EU has a GDP 50% larger than that of China and 7 times larger than the UK.

Well, a union isn't a country of course...even though disasters like you would no doubt have it as one.

Those statistics are no doubt complied with the UK within them....We are one of only three net contributors.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 13 Jul 17 6.50pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 No, they are failings of government, they were responsible for the activities you list, not private business. I didn't say anything was a universal good - nothing is. I do say that businesses and market forces are better at doing things than the government. In your set up, who intervenes where services are inefficient and where there are imbalances in society (whatever that really means). Are inequalities causes of economic inefficiency? Well yeah, for people that can afford it - healthcare and education, for example. But for those that can't, the vast majority, Government 'interference' to provide is 100% needed. As well as the above we need defence, Law/Justice, Environmental care, roadworks, food and rural affairs, etc all to be administered by The State. You may disagree so how would you expect private enterprise and market forces to do better for the people of the UK if they were given free rein to take over those sectors? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 13 Jul 17 6.50pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

No, they are failings of government, they were responsible for the activities you list, not private business. I didn't say anything was a universal good - nothing is. I do say that businesses and market forces are better at doing things than the government. In your set up, who intervenes where services are inefficient and where there are imbalances in society (whatever that really means). Are inequalities causes of economic inefficiency?

Well yeah, for people that can afford it - healthcare and education, for example. But for those that can't, the vast majority, Government 'interference' to provide is 100% needed.

As well as the above we need defence, Law/Justice, Environmental care, roadworks, food and rural affairs, etc all to be administered by The State. You may disagree so how would you expect private enterprise and market forces to do better for the people of the UK if they were given free rein to take over those sectors?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 6.51pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Why do you look at the EU at all? Shouldn't you be looking at the UK as a 'walking financial disaster'. The UK is bankrupt cannot pay its debts. Its for the EU to manage its own future it doesn't need advice from the UK. Remember when the UK would lecture the EU about its successful economy what does it look like now. Errr....We are paying our debts...Put down the juice and your anti British glasses. Holistically economically we are and have been doing well for a very long time.....I say that while recognising that we do have issues....But not ones connected to brexit. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 17 6.51pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Why do you look at the EU at all?

Shouldn't you be looking at the UK as a 'walking financial disaster'.

The UK is bankrupt cannot pay its debts.

Its for the EU to manage its own future it doesn't need advice from the UK.

Remember when the UK would lecture the EU about its successful economy what does it look like now.

Errr....We are paying our debts...Put down the juice and your anti British glasses.

Holistically economically we are and have been doing well for a very long time.....I say that while recognising that we do have issues....But not ones connected to brexit.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 13 Jul 17 6.55pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Emotive nonsense. It's a very powerful trading bloc. The most powerful in the world. It's going to take a lot to topple it. But then why would we want it to fail? It will only harm us even more if it does. And you and I will be six feet under if Brexit ever becomes a success compared to the now. It's not emotive nonsense at all. Yes the EU is a powerful trading block as its propped up by Germany. It's also very sick economically and constantly having to invent money long after the financial crash nearly ten years ago.....Do you actually look into the EU and how it is doing? I don't actually wish the EU to go down....I would wish for it to reform...but I know that's not going to happen until it does crash and burn....But I most definitely don't wish for human suffering...quite the contrary. We shall see who is right and who is wrong about Brexit Kermit. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Jul 17 6.55pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

And you and I will be six feet under if Brexit ever becomes a success compared to the now.

It's not emotive nonsense at all.

Yes the EU is a powerful trading block as its propped up by Germany. It's also very sick economically and constantly having to invent money long after the financial crash nearly ten years ago.....Do you actually look into the EU and how it is doing?

I don't actually wish the EU to go down....I would wish for it to reform...but I know that's not going to happen until it does crash and burn....But I most definitely don't wish for human suffering...quite the contrary.

We shall see who is right and who is wrong about Brexit Kermit.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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