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Penge Eagle Beckenham 25 Mar 03 12.42pm
Quote halfmanhalfslug at 25 Mar 2003 11:13am This war just keeps getting grimmer, and keeps looking like a bigger and bigger mistake. I disagree. Casualties are inevitable in all wars - so nothing new there - even though it is very hard to swallow. The movement on land and complete dominance in the air has shown the significant progress the coalition forces have made. And with the amount of damage done, civilian casualites have been very low. They thought more Iraqis would surrender than actually did. Baghdad will be a massive test. The coalition forces have to go in and risk their lives in street fighting rather than bomb the towns to smitherines and kill innocent Iraqis. I know relatives of troops out there get very angry with the anti-war marchers. I just spoke to the relative of a local lad who is out in Basra aged 20 with the Royal Marine Commandos. Time will tell when they cross "the line" if they'll be subjected to chemical weapons.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 25 Mar 03 12.42pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 25 Mar 2003 11:13am

This war just keeps getting grimmer, and keeps looking like a bigger and bigger mistake.

I disagree. Casualties are inevitable in all wars - so nothing new there - even though it is very hard to swallow.

The movement on land and complete dominance in the air has shown the significant progress the coalition forces have made. And with the amount of damage done, civilian casualites have been very low. They thought more Iraqis would surrender than actually did.

Baghdad will be a massive test. The coalition forces have to go in and risk their lives in street fighting rather than bomb the towns to smitherines and kill innocent Iraqis.

I know relatives of troops out there get very angry with the anti-war marchers. I just spoke to the relative of a local lad who is out in Basra aged 20 with the Royal Marine Commandos.

Time will tell when they cross "the line" if they'll be subjected to chemical weapons.

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 1.10pm
Personally, I believe much of the reason for the hitherto rapid advance, is simply because the Iraqis have not engaged us in battle yet. It's their home turf, and given the fact that they are so heavily outnumbered and outgunned they would be foolish to face us in a straight battle on an open battlefield. They choose when and where we fight -- not us. Urban guerrilla warfare tends to even the odds, as it were... and we should be fairly certain that their tactics are going to be pretty damn clever, as most of their senior commanders trained in the UK. Once the battle reaches the cities proper, like Baghdad today or tomorrow by the looks of it, I think you'll find the casualties (both soldiers and civilians) counting up fast. I so hope I am wrong on this. Especially, as you've pointed out Gordon, if there is this "red line" beyond which they will use chemical weapons. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 1.10pm

Personally, I believe much of the reason for the hitherto rapid advance, is simply because the Iraqis have not engaged us in battle yet.

It's their home turf, and given the fact that they are so heavily outnumbered and outgunned they would be foolish to face us in a straight battle on an open battlefield. They choose when and where we fight -- not us. Urban guerrilla warfare tends to even the odds, as it were... and we should be fairly certain that their tactics are going to be pretty damn clever, as most of their senior commanders trained in the UK.

Once the battle reaches the cities proper, like Baghdad today or tomorrow by the looks of it, I think you'll find the casualties (both soldiers and civilians) counting up fast.

I so hope I am wrong on this. Especially, as you've pointed out Gordon, if there is this "red line" beyond which they will use chemical weapons.

face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno

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Moose In the sewer pipe... 25 Mar 03 1.30pm
I read with amazement the breakdown of the USD 75 billion (that's about GBP 50 billion) that Bush wants to fund this war. Unbelievable fact #1: USD 60.5 billion - over 80% of that money - is for the war effort while USD 1.7 billion has been set aside to repair the damage. Unbelievable fact #2: By comparison, the USA is offering USD 0.5 billion in humanitarian aid to the Iraqis, whom it is bombing the hell out of but claims it has no argument with. Unbelievable fact #3: USD 10 BILLION is being offered to Israel, that poverty-stricken nation, while USD 0.4 billion is being offered to Afghanistan. So the US, if it is to be believed, is spending USD 73 billion to remove Saddam Hussain. Those oil wells must be full. I did get very excited at one point. There is USD 1 billion earmarked as "aid for Jordan". Unfortunately, I discovered the money is destined for a middle-eastern country rather than the Chairman of Crystal Palace Football Club. Bloody Yanks. Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.
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Moose

In the sewer pipe... 25 Mar 03 1.30pm

I read with amazement the breakdown of the USD 75 billion (that's about GBP 50 billion) that Bush wants to fund this war.

Unbelievable fact #1: USD 60.5 billion - over 80% of that money - is for the war effort while USD 1.7 billion has been set aside to repair the damage.

Unbelievable fact #2: By comparison, the USA is offering USD 0.5 billion in humanitarian aid to the Iraqis, whom it is bombing the hell out of but claims it has no argument with.

Unbelievable fact #3: USD 10 BILLION is being offered to Israel, that poverty-stricken nation, while USD 0.4 billion is being offered to Afghanistan.

So the US, if it is to be believed, is spending USD 73 billion to remove Saddam Hussain. Those oil wells must be full.

I did get very excited at one point. There is USD 1 billion earmarked as "aid for Jordan". Unfortunately, I discovered the money is destined for a middle-eastern country rather than the Chairman of Crystal Palace Football Club. Bloody Yanks.

Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 2.09pm
LOL Moose. Here's a demonstration of why we're fighting, to preserve our freedom of self-expression. Except it seems we're not allowed this freedom except when it suits them... Quote Marchers Protest Arrest of Man For Wearing Peace T-shirt at Crossgates Mall By Carol DeMare Times Union Wednesday 5 March 2003 Shopper charged after refusing to take off shirt that mall store made for him, bearing slogans "Peace on Earth" and "Give Peace a Chance" GUILDERLAND -- About 100 people marched through Crossgates Mall at noon today to protest the arrest Monday of a man who wore a peace T-shirt while he shopped. "We just want to know what the policy is and why it's being randomly enforced," said Erin O'Brien, an organizer of the rally. No arrests were reported, and protest leaders were scheduled to meet with the mall's manager after the rally. In Monday's incident, an attorney for the state was arrested and hauled into court after refusing to take off a T-shirt that said "Give Peace a Chance" while shopping at the mall. This is at least the second time in recent months that mall security asked people wearing T-shirts with peace slogans to leave. Steve Downs, 60, of Selkirk, said he was minding his own business Monday when he refused to remove the shirt and was charged with trespass. "My point was I'm not trying to convert anybody," Downs said Tuesday. "This was a statement of where I was in my life." He had purchased the shirt in a shop in the mall shortly before the arrest. The store put on the lettering while he waited: "Peace on Earth" on the front and "Give Peace a Chance" on the back. His son, Roger Downs, 31, of New Baltimore, an ecologist, also bought a shirt. It read "No War With Iraq" and "Let Inspections Work." "When they asked me to take it off, I took it off," Roger said. "I think it was ridiculous. I guess the way we see this is we feel the mall has a right to control assembly, not want large protests or large special interest groups or rallies. We were just individuals with T-shirts on, and we were shopping. We weren't talking to people or handing out leaflets." Numerous calls to Crossgates Marketing Director Sarah Nieves regarding mall policy were not returned. Heidi Siegfried, interim executive director of the Capital Region chapter of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said, "We have the position that the public space in the mall should be a First Amendment protected activity. Even when they have the right to control and prohibit ... someone shouldn't be removed when doing activity consistent with the normal uses of the mall." On Dec. 21, about two dozen anti-war protesters wearing pro-peace T-shirts and carrying signs were asked to leave Crossgates. The group complied. The incident with the father and son occurred shortly after 7 p.m. in the food court. They said they were asked by two security guards to take off their T-shirts, leave or be arrested. "I don't think we have to take off the T-shirts," said Steve Downs, chief attorney in the Albany office of the Commission on Judicial Conduct. The guards returned with a Guilderland police officer and, "It was the same routine all over again," the father said. "I said 'OK, arrest me.' " The cop talked to him for an hour after he was handcuffed, Downs said, trying to get him to drop the whole thing and take the shirt off. "I didn't want to do that," Downs said. "They were just doing their duty. They were trying to be very peaceful. They didn't want any confrontation." He was repeatedly told the mall was private property and what he was wearing was unacceptable, the same as if he went to someone's home wearing something unacceptable. "I said it's not the same thing, it's not a good analogy," said Steve Downs, who insisted he wasn't protesting or demonstrating by wearing the shirt. Guilderland Town Justice Kenneth Riddett released Downs on his own recognizance and set a return date of March 17. Trespass, a violation, carries a maximum of 15 days in jail. A fine or conditional discharge with community service is more commonly given. Unbelievable. But true. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 2.09pm

LOL Moose.

Here's a demonstration of why we're fighting, to preserve our freedom of self-expression. Except it seems we're not allowed this freedom except when it suits them...

Quote
Marchers Protest Arrest of Man For Wearing Peace T-shirt at Crossgates Mall
By Carol DeMare
Times Union

Wednesday 5 March 2003

Shopper charged after refusing to take off shirt that mall store made for him, bearing slogans "Peace on Earth" and "Give Peace a Chance"

GUILDERLAND -- About 100 people marched through Crossgates Mall at noon today to protest the arrest Monday of a man who wore a peace T-shirt while he shopped.

"We just want to know what the policy is and why it's being randomly enforced," said Erin O'Brien, an organizer of the rally.

No arrests were reported, and protest leaders were scheduled to meet with the mall's manager after the rally.

In Monday's incident, an attorney for the state was arrested and hauled into court after refusing to take off a T-shirt that said "Give Peace a Chance" while shopping at the mall.

This is at least the second time in recent months that mall security asked people wearing T-shirts with peace slogans to leave.

Steve Downs, 60, of Selkirk, said he was minding his own business Monday when he refused to remove the shirt and was charged with trespass.

"My point was I'm not trying to convert anybody," Downs said Tuesday. "This was a statement of where I was in my life."

He had purchased the shirt in a shop in the mall shortly before the arrest. The store put on the lettering while he waited: "Peace on Earth" on the front and "Give Peace a Chance" on the back.

His son, Roger Downs, 31, of New Baltimore, an ecologist, also bought a shirt. It read "No War With Iraq" and "Let Inspections Work."

"When they asked me to take it off, I took it off," Roger said. "I think it was ridiculous. I guess the way we see this is we feel the mall has a right to control assembly, not want large protests or large special interest groups or rallies. We were just individuals with T-shirts on, and we were shopping. We weren't talking to people or handing out leaflets."

Numerous calls to Crossgates Marketing Director Sarah Nieves regarding mall policy were not returned.

Heidi Siegfried, interim executive director of the Capital Region chapter of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said, "We have the position that the public space in the mall should be a First Amendment protected activity. Even when they have the right to control and prohibit ... someone shouldn't be removed when doing activity consistent with the normal uses of the mall."

On Dec. 21, about two dozen anti-war protesters wearing pro-peace T-shirts and carrying signs were asked to leave Crossgates. The group complied.

The incident with the father and son occurred shortly after 7 p.m. in the food court. They said they were asked by two security guards to take off their T-shirts, leave or be arrested.

"I don't think we have to take off the T-shirts," said Steve Downs, chief attorney in the Albany office of the Commission on Judicial Conduct.

The guards returned with a Guilderland police officer and, "It was the same routine all over again," the father said. "I said 'OK, arrest me.' "

The cop talked to him for an hour after he was handcuffed, Downs said, trying to get him to drop the whole thing and take the shirt off.

"I didn't want to do that," Downs said. "They were just doing their duty. They were trying to be very peaceful. They didn't want any confrontation."

He was repeatedly told the mall was private property and what he was wearing was unacceptable, the same as if he went to someone's home wearing something unacceptable.

"I said it's not the same thing, it's not a good analogy," said Steve Downs, who insisted he wasn't protesting or demonstrating by wearing the shirt.

Guilderland Town Justice Kenneth Riddett released Downs on his own recognizance and set a return date of March 17. Trespass, a violation, carries a maximum of 15 days in jail. A fine or conditional discharge with community service is more commonly given.

Unbelievable. But true.

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Meerkat 2 1957 25 Mar 03 2.09pm
From what I've seen nobody is "bombing the hell out of Iraq". There is no need to rebuild presidential palaces or the 'Saddam Hussein Museum'. There is no need to replace old Soviet armoured vehicles or anti-aircraft batteries. The essential infrastructure of Iraq is being left intact with the exception of Basra's water supply which has now been partially repaired by the Red Cross and local contractors. Iraq is presently capable of generating a minimum of $3bn a year from oil production which, with UN help, should increase to over $12bn in the next two years. This is not some mineral deprived third world state.
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Meerkat 2

1957 25 Mar 03 2.09pm

From what I've seen nobody is "bombing the hell out of Iraq".

There is no need to rebuild presidential palaces or the 'Saddam Hussein Museum'. There is no need to replace old Soviet armoured vehicles or anti-aircraft batteries.

The essential infrastructure of Iraq is being left intact with the exception of Basra's water supply which has now been partially repaired by the Red Cross and local contractors.

Iraq is presently capable of generating a minimum of $3bn a year from oil production which, with UN help, should increase to over $12bn in the next two years.

This is not some mineral deprived third world state.

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 2.19pm
An Iraqi missile has just been intercepted over Kuwait again. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 2.19pm

An Iraqi missile has just been intercepted over Kuwait again.

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Meerkat 2 1957 25 Mar 03 2.21pm
Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield.
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Meerkat 2

1957 25 Mar 03 2.21pm

Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield.

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 2.31pm
Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:21pm Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield. Yeah, I heard they stationed the Republican Guard artillery pieces in populated areas. Not surprising, given they know how paranoid we are about civilian deaths. Another easily foreseeable problem coming home to roost, I fear. Equally disturbingly, British Royal Marines have moved into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 2.31pm

Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:21pm

Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield.

Yeah, I heard they stationed the Republican Guard artillery pieces in populated areas. Not surprising, given they know how paranoid we are about civilian deaths. Another easily foreseeable problem coming home to roost, I fear.

Equally disturbingly, British Royal Marines have moved into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war.

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Moose In the sewer pipe... 25 Mar 03 2.40pm
Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:09pm From what I've seen nobody is "bombing the hell out of Iraq". There is no need to rebuild presidential palaces or the 'Saddam Hussein Museum'. There is no need to replace old Soviet armoured vehicles or anti-aircraft batteries. The essential infrastructure of Iraq is being left intact with the exception of Basra's water supply which has now been partially repaired by the Red Cross and local contractors. Iraq is presently capable of generating a minimum of bn a year from oil production which, with UN help, should increase to over bn in the next two years. This is not some mineral deprived third world state. My point was that the USA is quite happy to spend over USD 60 billion to wage war but, by comparison, the amount pledged to clear the mess up afterwards is derisory. Of course Iraq is a wealthy nation. It's like so many more in the Third World where practically all the resources and money are owned by a corrupt goverment. Unfortunately, the country's wealth is wasted on presidential protection andluxury. Most of the rest disappears off to Switzerland. What makes you think that a future leader of Iraq will be any more philanthropic? Look at Zimbabwe, where Mugabe was installed after years of "evil" British rule to liberate the blacks and share the nation's resources amongst the many. I don't know the exact number of bombs that have been dropped on Baghdad so far, but it's many hundreds, if not over a thousand. If I lived there I'd think the USA was bombing the hell out of me. Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.
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Moose

In the sewer pipe... 25 Mar 03 2.40pm

Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:09pm

From what I've seen nobody is "bombing the hell out of Iraq".

There is no need to rebuild presidential palaces or the 'Saddam Hussein Museum'. There is no need to replace old Soviet armoured vehicles or anti-aircraft batteries.

The essential infrastructure of Iraq is being left intact with the exception of Basra's water supply which has now been partially repaired by the Red Cross and local contractors.

Iraq is presently capable of generating a minimum of bn a year from oil production which, with UN help, should increase to over bn in the next two years.

This is not some mineral deprived third world state.

My point was that the USA is quite happy to spend over USD 60 billion to wage war but, by comparison, the amount pledged to clear the mess up afterwards is derisory.

Of course Iraq is a wealthy nation. It's like so many more in the Third World where practically all the resources and money are owned by a corrupt goverment. Unfortunately, the country's wealth is wasted on presidential protection andluxury. Most of the rest disappears off to Switzerland. What makes you think that a future leader of Iraq will be any more philanthropic? Look at Zimbabwe, where Mugabe was installed after years of "evil" British rule to liberate the blacks and share the nation's resources amongst the many.

I don't know the exact number of bombs that have been dropped on Baghdad so far, but it's many hundreds, if not over a thousand. If I lived there I'd think the USA was bombing the hell out of me.

Goodness is what you do. Not who you pray to.

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Meerkat 2 1957 25 Mar 03 3.36pm
Quote halfmanhalfslug at 25 Mar 2003 2:31pm Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:21pm Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield. Yeah, I heard they stationed the Republican Guard artillery pieces in populated areas. Not surprising, given they know how paranoid we are about civilian deaths. Another easily foreseeable problem coming home to roost, I fear. Equally disturbingly, British Royal Marines have moved into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war. No, they are actually marching civilian groups out of Basra and firing from within these groups. British snipers are trying to take out the shooters to prevent civilian casualties.
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Meerkat 2

1957 25 Mar 03 3.36pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 25 Mar 2003 2:31pm

Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:21pm

Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield.

Equally disturbingly, British Royal Marines have moved into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war.

No, they are actually marching civilian groups out of Basra and firing from within these groups. British snipers are trying to take out the shooters to prevent civilian casualties.

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 3.59pm
Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 3:36pm Quote halfmanhalfslug at 25 Mar 2003 2:31pm Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:21pm Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield. Yeah, I heard they stationed the Republican Guard artillery pieces in populated areas. Not surprising, given they know how paranoid we are about civilian deaths. Another easily foreseeable problem coming home to roost, I fear. Equally disturbingly, British Royal Marines have moved into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war. No, they are actually marching civilian groups out of Basra and firing from within these groups. British snipers are trying to take out the shooters to prevent civilian casualties. Strewth! That's incredible. Still, it may work in our favour in the long run -- if other Iraqis find out about it. Poor bstrds. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 3.59pm

Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 3:36pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 25 Mar 2003 2:31pm

Quote Meerkat 2 at 25 Mar 2003 2:21pm

Saddam's elite forces are firing on Desert Rat positions outside Basra using Iraqi civlians as a human shield.

Equally disturbingly, British Royal Marines have moved into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war.

No, they are actually marching civilian groups out of Basra and firing from within these groups. British snipers are trying to take out the shooters to prevent civilian casualties.

Strewth! That's incredible. Still, it may work in our favour in the long run -- if other Iraqis find out about it.

Poor b*st*rds.

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eulalio Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 5.27pm
Meanwhile, it seems the US still can't get the hang of figuring out whose side they're on. A US F-16 fighter jet has fired on a Patriot missile battery after it mistakenly locked on to the plane. The jet fired a high speed anti-radiation missile which damaged the battery's radar before it could launch a missile. Thankfully this time no casualties have been reported. face up to your share of the blame you filthy terrorist sympathiser - Petealiator 8/7/2005 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality - Theodor Adorno
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eulalio

Girls just wanna have Funt 25 Mar 03 5.27pm

Meanwhile, it seems the US still can't get the hang of figuring out whose side they're on.

A US F-16 fighter jet has fired on a Patriot missile battery after it mistakenly locked on to the plane. The jet fired a high speed anti-radiation missile which damaged the battery's radar before it could launch a missile. Thankfully this time no casualties have been reported.

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