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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Oct 17 12.00pm
Originally posted by Mapletree I think there is consensus on here that a same sex couple is a decent option for someone otherwise in care. The argument seems to be more that a same sex couple bringing a child into the world, e.g. the old turkey baster routine, is unfair on the child and to be discouraged. Thanks for the apology "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Oct 17 12.00pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

I think there is consensus on here that a same sex couple is a decent option for someone otherwise in care.

The argument seems to be more that a same sex couple bringing a child into the world, e.g. the old turkey baster routine, is unfair on the child and to be discouraged.

Thanks for the apology

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 17 12.05pm
Originally posted by Mapletree I think there is consensus on here that a same sex couple is a decent option for someone otherwise in care. The argument seems to be more that a same sex couple bringing a child into the world, e.g. the old turkey baster routine, is unfair on the child and to be discouraged. I don't sign up to it as a 'decent option'. I would only consider it if the other gender had a significant input and was present. Some same sex couples have this and others don't. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 17 12.05pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

I think there is consensus on here that a same sex couple is a decent option for someone otherwise in care.

The argument seems to be more that a same sex couple bringing a child into the world, e.g. the old turkey baster routine, is unfair on the child and to be discouraged.

I don't sign up to it as a 'decent option'.

I would only consider it if the other gender had a significant input and was present. Some same sex couples have this and others don't.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Oct 17 12.05pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I think there is a difference between what a child worries about or not and the psychological effect circumstances have. The effect of not having a 'regular' upbringing might not be apparent to the individual or appear until later life. I was raised by my grandparents and had no contact with my mother at all past infancy. My father was a weekly visitor. I chose to remain with my grandparents even after my dad remarried. I was happy there as far as I was concerned. I have no doubt that my circumstances have had an effect on my personality over the years and that I have only become more self aware about them as I have got older. The world is full of kids from broken homes and difficult backgrounds and there is often just a least worst option for them from necessity. I don't think that should be an excuse to promote progressive ideas above the best interests of the child because aside from putting the child first, we don't know what kind of society that will create. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (10 Oct 2017 11.38am) One thing most people don't realise when talking about adoption, is how the process works when a kid is placed with a family. The aim of the social services is based around the least disruption to the child - usually seeking to place a child within a branch of the family, or with relatives (or people they know or have a relationship with). Often a Aunt / Uncle couple of one of the parents, grandparents is the normal approach - even friends of the family. Where this can't be achieved, older siblings may be considered and every effort is made to keep brothers and sisters together. Its also quite a lengthy process to go through to adopt a child, and the idea of progressive attitudes doesn't come into it - its all about the kid. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Oct 17 12.05pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I think there is a difference between what a child worries about or not and the psychological effect circumstances have.
The effect of not having a 'regular' upbringing might not be apparent to the individual or appear until later life.
I was raised by my grandparents and had no contact with my mother at all past infancy. My father was a weekly visitor. I chose to remain with my grandparents even after my dad remarried. I was happy there as far as I was concerned. I have no doubt that my circumstances have had an effect on my personality over the years and that I have only become more self aware about them as I have got older.
The world is full of kids from broken homes and difficult backgrounds and there is often just a least worst option for them from necessity. I don't think that should be an excuse to promote progressive ideas above the best interests of the child because aside from putting the child first, we don't know what kind of society that will create.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (10 Oct 2017 11.38am)

One thing most people don't realise when talking about adoption, is how the process works when a kid is placed with a family. The aim of the social services is based around the least disruption to the child - usually seeking to place a child within a branch of the family, or with relatives (or people they know or have a relationship with). Often a Aunt / Uncle couple of one of the parents, grandparents is the normal approach - even friends of the family. Where this can't be achieved, older siblings may be considered and every effort is made to keep brothers and sisters together.

Its also quite a lengthy process to go through to adopt a child, and the idea of progressive attitudes doesn't come into it - its all about the kid.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Michaelawt85 Bexley 10 Oct 17 12.08pm
Originally posted by dannyh And therein lies the absolute crux of my argument. As so called enlightened humans we have decided that same sex couples with kids is a blinding idea. Without any study into the future psychological effects of those children placed in their care. Don't think for one minute I am demonising same sex parents. I just think in our rush to be "inclusive" we have rather missed who this affects most. To me the issue personally isn't so much that he f***ed off it the fact I could be stood at the bus stop and not have a clue if he was stood next to me. I literally have no idea who the guy is When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC
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Michaelawt85

Bexley 10 Oct 17 12.08pm

Originally posted by dannyh

And therein lies the absolute crux of my argument. As so called enlightened humans we have decided that same sex couples with kids is a blinding idea. Without any study into the future psychological effects of those children placed in their care. Don't think for one minute I am demonising same sex parents. I just think in our rush to be "inclusive" we have rather missed who this affects most.

To me the issue personally isn't so much that he f***ed off it the fact I could be stood at the bus stop and not have a clue if he was stood next to me. I literally have no idea who the guy is

When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC

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Hrolf The Ganger 10 Oct 17 12.14pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 One thing most people don't realise when talking about adoption, is how the process works when a kid is placed with a family. The aim of the social services is based around the least disruption to the child - usually seeking to place a child within a branch of the family, or with relatives (or people they know or have a relationship with). Often a Aunt / Uncle couple of one of the parents, grandparents is the normal approach - even friends of the family. Where this can't be achieved, older siblings may be considered and every effort is made to keep brothers and sisters together. Its also quite a lengthy process to go through to adopt a child, and the idea of progressive attitudes doesn't come into it - its all about the kid. As it should be. So you are suggesting that same sex couples are a last resort?
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Hrolf The Ganger

10 Oct 17 12.14pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its also quite a lengthy process to go through to adopt a child, and the idea of progressive attitudes doesn't come into it - its all about the kid.

As it should be.
So you are suggesting that same sex couples are a last resort?

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Mapletree Croydon 10 Oct 17 12.15pm
Originally posted by dannyh Can you read ? I do agree yes, but only to a point. I suppose what I'm saying is that as an alternative to a s*ty life, with even stier parents then same sex couples who offer the child a better environment are obviously better for that child. I said quite clearly same sex parents were a better option than the kid being with s**ty parents. Talk about read what you want to see. It says THEN not than FFS. Edited by dannyh (10 Oct 2017 11.51am) Ah yes, I had misread that and I do apologise Danny. I thought the then was a than. A sign of age and dodgy mincers.
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Mapletree

Croydon 10 Oct 17 12.15pm

Originally posted by dannyh

Can you read ?

I do agree yes, but only to a point. I suppose what I'm saying is that as an alternative to a s***ty life, with even s***tier parents then same sex couples who offer the child a better environment are obviously better for that child.

I said quite clearly same sex parents were a better option than the kid being with s***ty parents. Talk about read what you want to see.

It says THEN not than FFS.

Edited by dannyh (10 Oct 2017 11.51am)

Ah yes, I had misread that and I do apologise Danny.

I thought the then was a than. A sign of age and dodgy mincers.

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Hrolf The Ganger 10 Oct 17 12.21pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 To me the issue personally isn't so much that he f***ed off it the fact I could be stood at the bus stop and not have a clue if he was stood next to me. I literally have no idea who the guy is Have you tried tracing him?
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Hrolf The Ganger

10 Oct 17 12.21pm

Originally posted by Michaelawt85

To me the issue personally isn't so much that he f***ed off it the fact I could be stood at the bus stop and not have a clue if he was stood next to me. I literally have no idea who the guy is

Have you tried tracing him?

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Oct 17 12.22pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 To me the issue personally isn't so much that he f***ed off it the fact I could be stood at the bus stop and not have a clue if he was stood next to me. I literally have no idea who the guy is My sympathies for that, but the scenario would be the same for any same sex adopted baby. It must have had at some point, a mother and a father to be conceived in the first place. I have yet to know personally any adopted child who has grown up, and not wanted to know who their real mother or father was, or be intrigued. Even the ones whose parents were never around as they grew up eventually want to know who they are and where they come from, that's just being human That will be no different whether the adoptive parents are gay or straight, but that wasn't my point or issue with same sex parents. My issue is that nothing can beat the love of a stable and caring mother and father, so before we start allowing free season on Turkey Basters, we need to understand the longer term pitfalls of same sex parenting. Despite what Jamie would have us think, compared to the amount, and depth of research into "normal" parenting same sex parents research disappears into insignificance, due largely to the fact that in relative terms, it is a new thing. Edited by dannyh (10 Oct 2017 12.26pm) "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 10 Oct 17 12.22pm

Originally posted by Michaelawt85

To me the issue personally isn't so much that he f***ed off it the fact I could be stood at the bus stop and not have a clue if he was stood next to me. I literally have no idea who the guy is

My sympathies for that, but the scenario would be the same for any same sex adopted baby. It must have had at some point, a mother and a father to be conceived in the first place.

I have yet to know personally any adopted child who has grown up, and not wanted to know who their real mother or father was, or be intrigued. Even the ones whose parents were never around as they grew up eventually want to know who they are and where they come from, that's just being human

That will be no different whether the adoptive parents are gay or straight, but that wasn't my point or issue with same sex parents. My issue is that nothing can beat the love of a stable and caring mother and father, so before we start allowing free season on Turkey Basters, we need to understand the longer term pitfalls of same sex parenting.

Despite what Jamie would have us think, compared to the amount, and depth of research into "normal" parenting same sex parents research disappears into insignificance, due largely to the fact that in relative terms, it is a new thing.

Edited by dannyh (10 Oct 2017 12.26pm)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Michaelawt85 Bexley 10 Oct 17 12.32pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Have you tried tracing him? Yes. It's a very complicated story but to simplify its one of several people. I found the two who were the most likely candidates so to speak. Did dna tests which I paid for myself and it wasn't either of them. I found a third and I have his address . He would be in his 70s now. All were at the time and still are married. I am the big dark secret so to speak. I wonder most days whether I should keep looking as time is running out or whether to leave it. If I peruse this third man and it isn't him then it leaves a fourth and final individual and I know nothing about him other than his name and he has proved difficult to track down (I have been looking on and off for the last 13 years) the crux of the matter is they know where to find me (my mum lives in the same house she did all those years ago) no one's ever come to look for me in 32 years. So their position is clear. Their loss I suppose When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC
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Michaelawt85

Bexley 10 Oct 17 12.32pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Have you tried tracing him?

Yes. It's a very complicated story but to simplify its one of several people. I found the two who were the most likely candidates so to speak. Did dna tests which I paid for myself and it wasn't either of them. I found a third and I have his address . He would be in his 70s now. All were at the time and still are married. I am the big dark secret so to speak. I wonder most days whether I should keep looking as time is running out or whether to leave it. If I peruse this third man and it isn't him then it leaves a fourth and final individual and I know nothing about him other than his name and he has proved difficult to track down (I have been looking on and off for the last 13 years) the crux of the matter is they know where to find me (my mum lives in the same house she did all those years ago) no one's ever come to look for me in 32 years. So their position is clear. Their loss I suppose

When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC

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Mapletree Croydon 10 Oct 17 12.33pm
Originally posted by dannyh My sympathies for that, but the scenario would be the same for any same sex adopted baby. It must have had at some point, a mother and a father to be conceived in the first place. I have yet to know personally any adopted child who has grown up, and not wanted to know who their real mother or father was, or be intrigued. Even the ones whose parents were never around as they grew up eventually want to know who they are and where they come from, that's just being human That will be no different whether the adoptive parents are gay or straight, but that wasn't my point or issue with same sex parents. My issue is that nothing can beat the love of a stable and caring mother and father, so before we start allowing free season on Turkey Basters, we need to understand the longer term pitfalls of same sex parenting. Despite what Jamie would have us think, compared to the amount, and depth of research into "normal" parenting same sex parents research disappears into insignificance, due largely to the fact that in relative terms, it is a new thing. Edited by dannyh (10 Oct 2017 12.26pm) This may help some people: Most children conceived at a UK licensed clinic from April 2005 have the right to know the name of their donor and his or her last known address from age 18 onwards. If they have not been given non-identifying information about their donor by their parents, donor conceived young people can ask for this from age 16.
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Mapletree

Croydon 10 Oct 17 12.33pm

Originally posted by dannyh

My sympathies for that, but the scenario would be the same for any same sex adopted baby. It must have had at some point, a mother and a father to be conceived in the first place.

Edited by dannyh (10 Oct 2017 12.26pm)

This may help some people:

Most children conceived at a UK licensed clinic from April 2005 have the right to know the name of their donor and his or her last known address from age 18 onwards. If they have not been given non-identifying information about their donor by their parents, donor conceived young people can ask for this from age 16.

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Kermit8 Hevon 10 Oct 17 12.34pm
This is interesting... "By 1995, studies of children raised in same-sex families were fueled by growing interest in parenting by gays and lesbians, increasing attention to the phenomenon of same-sex parenting in the culture at large, and a burst of custody cases involving gay and lesbian parents. Until the late 1990s, most psychological and sociological research of these children aimed to counteract assumptions made by courts about the unfitness of gay parents. The studies concluded that children raised by gays or lesbians do just as well in school and are as psychologically well-adjusted as children raised in comparable heterosexual families. One study by Charlotte Patterson (1994), however, departed from this trend by identifying two major differences: greater symptoms of stress and a greater sense of well-being among the four-to nine-year-old children of lesbian mothers. Patterson concludes, then, that although children raised from birth by lesbians showed signs of anxiety about their difference from their peers, the substantial support that they received at home buttressed them from outside criticism and shored up their self-esteem more generally. " Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 10 Oct 17 12.34pm

This is interesting...

"By 1995, studies of children raised in same-sex families were fueled by growing interest in parenting by gays and lesbians, increasing attention to the phenomenon of same-sex parenting in the culture at large, and a burst of custody cases involving gay and lesbian parents. Until the late 1990s, most psychological and sociological research of these children aimed to counteract assumptions made by courts about the unfitness of gay parents. The studies concluded that children raised by gays or lesbians do just as well in school and are as psychologically well-adjusted as children raised in comparable heterosexual families.

One study by Charlotte Patterson (1994), however, departed from this trend by identifying two major differences: greater symptoms of stress and a greater sense of well-being among the four-to nine-year-old children of lesbian mothers. Patterson concludes, then, that although children raised from birth by lesbians showed signs of anxiety about their difference from their peers, the substantial support that they received at home buttressed them from outside criticism and shored up their self-esteem more generally. "

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 10 Oct 17 12.42pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 Yes. It's a very complicated story but to simplify its one of several people. I found the two who were the most likely candidates so to speak. Did dna tests which I paid for myself and it wasn't either of them. I found a third and I have his address . He would be in his 70s now. All were at the time and still are married. I am the big dark secret so to speak. I wonder most days whether I should keep looking as time is running out or whether to leave it. If I peruse this third man and it isn't him then it leaves a fourth and final individual and I know nothing about him other than his name and he has proved difficult to track down (I have been looking on and off for the last 13 years) the crux of the matter is they know where to find me (my mum lives in the same house she did all those years ago) no one's ever come to look for me in 32 years. So their position is clear. Their loss I suppose I think the need to know is stronger than any desire to form some sort of relationship with the man concerned. If he has made no effort to find you then he is not worth your concern, assuming that he knows about you.
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Hrolf The Ganger

10 Oct 17 12.42pm

Originally posted by Michaelawt85

I think the need to know is stronger than any desire to form some sort of relationship with the man concerned.
If he has made no effort to find you then he is not worth your concern, assuming that he knows about you.

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