Of course I don't know you but I would say that this utterance, 'Having to pretend to be a big strong man at all times is not healthy. ' pretty much sums up your attitude.

You are anti masculinity....You are essentially the cultural discrimination problem I am talking about in the title post....the ideological shift that went too far. I think your belief in 'pretence' is pretty off.

The difference between males and females are a reality of nature. It isn't 'good' or 'bad' it is how the species was 'designed'...though I'm not claiming a god with this.

You need to accept biological realities between the sexes if you are going to treat them fairly.

Of course this isn't to say that encouraging moderating behaviour in the worst excesses of both isn't a bad thing....but I think we can see from your attitude and from others that this isn't really what's happening in society....The article link in the title post is evidence for that too.

So working on male mental health.....in fact the mental health of both genders is a good thing. Whether or not we should put more into male mental health to reduce the higher suicide is a point that's much higher than my pay grade.

As a layman I'd say no....As I don't think it would make that much of a difference to outcomes. It's an attempt to subvert nature and it would probably fail.

But whatever is most effective for the greater good...I'm not ideological about it. What I do react against is this idea that masculinity should be regarded negatively. It's no different to saying someone born gay should be treated negatively.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 May 2017 8.59pm)

Biology, doesn't have to factor in differences in individual behaviour.

The proof of biological differences in behaviour like actual suicide is born out by statistics over population. But the reality Jamie is that you shouldn't even require those statistics to know this.

This isn't to belittle suicide in women or saying that 'suicide' is a 'male' behaviour. All these are tendencies for certain actions over large population sizes. It isn't saying that men have harder times than women or anything like that.

As a generalisation males are higher risk takers and more prone to physically violent actions than women. This makes sense biologically for lots of reasons and paradoxically and unfortunately one of the indicators would be more of them taking a decision to end their own lives and doing it.

Of course their will be variations. The cultural environment affects behaviour. That's why the studies that look over large population sizes show the general truths and trends.

Jamie you should just admit it. Biological differences between the sexes lead to different behaviours. It isn't just environment at all....All that 'social construct' stuff only goes so far.

Nature isn't interested in ideology.....There is a good reason that for every 100 born females there are 106 males born.

This video isn't really about suicide but I like how it touches upon the differences between the sexes and how nature deals with it.

[Link]
Edited by Stirlingsays (04 May 2017 9.01pm)

As you know we all start off essentially female but then just less than half of us are warped into being blokes

Well thank god masculinity has been exactly the same in regards to women, and in no way promoted and influenced impossible ideals or restrictive concepts. Or pushed their agenda of 'masculinity' on to other men.

Also, aren't you arguing that your view of masculinity is more valid that say mine or DanH, who hold a different perception.

Feminist theory has given us, as men, an external critical analysis of our masculinity, and how it affects other men and women. Its not an attack, but more an outsider view of how our concepts of masculinity affect others (and how a history of imbalance of gender social power has made that perception more valid).

Perception as well is not formed from biology any more than masculinity is. Perceptions of masculinity are not structured from some biological truth, they're socially constructed.

For our perception of masculinity to be more valid, we must accept criticism of the consequences we may well be unaware of.

Do you think, for example, that the laws around rape and sexual assault were predominately defined by the gender associated with the most common perpetrator or the gender associated most commonly with the victim. What we've seen in recent decades, thanks in a large part to feminism, is women issues with how we define what is and isn't rape; and increasingly the view of what is acceptable and not acceptable, from those who by far suffer the consequences of these very serious crimes, and the failure of our justice systems to effectively protect women.

The degree, to which we as men, can define what is and is not damaging as acceptable social behaviour is limited, because we, as a gender, are the source of the problem.

Suicide may be a leading cause of death among young men. Violence is a leading cause of death among young women and its not at the hands of women.

Yeah, there are serious issues with concepts of what is acceptable and not acceptable behaviour for men, and that's generally been changing for the better over the decades.

But if someone gets raped, sexually assaulted, harassed or experiences violence or intimidation, the victim is most commonly female, and the perpetrator male.

Shouldn't this thread be in Bender Talk?

I think some feminism is beneficial, not all - Specifically that based in academic feminist theory. I don't think that by default that every declaration made by feminists is true, or reliable, just as every statement made in defence of masculinity is reliable or true.

The problem is that there is an industry that has sprung up around popularist nonsense, that is more opinion and wishful thinking than research orientated - And that this has especially informed the third wave feminism and new wave of feminism where the idea of female empowerment is about 'women first', rather than addressing the imbalance of social power.