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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 1.28pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
The problem with ethics is that they are defined by people and people have bias. The less people involved the less reliable. They defined by discourse and interrogation. Obviously ethics have a bias, that's well established, but then we also have the capacity to challenge established ethics and change them, and have systems within our legal system and government codes to allow this (and protect these right to appeal, to take legal action and to protest). For example, in the criminal justice system, it is a legal defence that if you can demonstrate to the court, that you committed a crime to prevent a greater crime taking place, you will be acquitted. How do we make decisions, if we do not weight the ethical considerations of our actions - Surely that would be to respond impulsively? Is it really a judgement call that causes people to not act immorally, or unethically? Or is it because we have created codes of ethics and morals within society that we learn and grow with, as well as systems of ethics with which to 'punish' transgressors, as well as determine the ethical limits of those punishments etc. I wouldn't say its a perfect system, but the UK legal systems probably one of the best adversarial criminal justice systems. Blair convinced himself he was doing the right thing? No I don't think he did, I think he knew exactly what he was doing, and why, and didn't care what others said or wanted, and he did so for entirely selfish reasons. If he thought he was doing the right thing, he'd have prepared for the aftermath.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 1.31pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
What even if you were in a gulag, or a cellar in the Lubyanka, or forced to eat your dead children to avoid starvation? In terms of threat to the UK, as a UK citizen. From the perspective of the UK, new Russia is more problematic than the Soviet Union had become. Problem is, that the gulags, the murder and the prison haven't gone away have they. Poverty is still a major problem in Russia. Its nice that people aren't having to eat their kids, its a shame that in order to survive they're pushing them into prostitution.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 10 Mar 17 1.51pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
In terms of threat to the UK, as a UK citizen. From the perspective of the UK, new Russia is more problematic than the Soviet Union had become. Problem is, that the gulags, the murder and the prison haven't gone away have they. Poverty is still a major problem in Russia. Its nice that people aren't having to eat their kids, its a shame that in order to survive they're pushing them into prostitution. More problematic than during the Cuban Missile Crisis? You are seriously comparing current Russian prisons to those of the communists? You are seriously comparing murders now to those under the communists? So you think it is 'nice' that people no longer have to eat their children - how magnanimous of you. Surprised you haven't trotted out the 'you have to break eggs to make an omelette' line - the line usually used by communism apologists to justify any of the communists' crimes. Are you saying the only success of the communists that you can think of is that they controlled prostitution better?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 2.01pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
More problematic than during the Cuban Missile Crisis? You are seriously comparing current Russian prisons to those of the communists? You are seriously comparing murders now to those under the communists? That would be the Soviet of the 1960s, not the crumbling state propping itself up in the late 80s and early 90s. So for clarity, I don't see much difference between the Soviet union of the 80s and the Russia Federation of the present, except of course their economic power and influence is much greater. Originally posted by hedgehog50
So you think it is 'nice' that people no longer have to eat their children - how magnanimous of you. Surprised you haven't trotted out the 'you have to break eggs to make an omelette' line - the line usually used by communism apologists to justify any of the communists' crimes. You shouldn't take everything literally. We all know you hate communism, and we all should, the communist regimes were brutal dicatorships built on murder. Where as modern Russia is a Brutal 'Democracy' built preserved by murder. I don't regard Stalin or Hitler as worse than one another either. Genocide isn't really a game of top trumps. Any regime that has committed acts of genocide, ethnic cleansing or utilised the murder or imprisonment of political opponents as a matter of policy is as bad as any other. There isn't an acceptable level of state sponsored murder that is ok. I don't think the Soviet Union was any kind of success at anything. And the Russian Federation is just the continuation of the same mentality of government.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 2.06pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
It is simply ludicrous to liken the capability for murder of communist Russia with the current regime. Is it some sort of anarchist philosophical view? Soviet Union of the 80s and 90s is pretty comparable to the Russian Federation. Except of course for the power and influence of the Russian Federation, and its popularity within its population. When all your quibbling about is the degree of magnitude of the 'evil', your still just justifying 'evil'.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 10 Mar 17 2.13pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Soviet Union of the 80s and 90s is pretty comparable to the Russian Federation. Except of course for the power and influence of the Russian Federation, and its popularity within its population. When all your quibbling about is the degree of magnitude of the 'evil', your still just justifying 'evil'. It's not. And it's not worth trying to debate this with you, it's like talking to a Jehovah's Witness.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Hrolf The Ganger 10 Mar 17 2.16pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
They defined by discourse and interrogation. Obviously ethics have a bias, that's well established, but then we also have the capacity to challenge established ethics and change them, and have systems within our legal system and government codes to allow this (and protect these right to appeal, to take legal action and to protest). For example, in the criminal justice system, it is a legal defence that if you can demonstrate to the court, that you committed a crime to prevent a greater crime taking place, you will be acquitted. How do we make decisions, if we do not weight the ethical considerations of our actions - Surely that would be to respond impulsively? Is it really a judgement call that causes people to not act immorally, or unethically? Or is it because we have created codes of ethics and morals within society that we learn and grow with, as well as systems of ethics with which to 'punish' transgressors, as well as determine the ethical limits of those punishments etc. I wouldn't say its a perfect system, but the UK legal systems probably one of the best adversarial criminal justice systems. Blair convinced himself he was doing the right thing? No I don't think he did, I think he knew exactly what he was doing, and why, and didn't care what others said or wanted, and he did so for entirely selfish reasons. If he thought he was doing the right thing, he'd have prepared for the aftermath. It would be interesting to actually know how much of it was a self deluded justification or a willful misuse of authority. Did he and Bush just have information or follow a strategy that they believed in for the benefit of Western interests or was it pure callous self interest or personal ambition?
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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 3.41pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
It's not. And it's not worth trying to debate this with you, it's like talking to a Jehovah's Witness. RAWWWARRRR - It is to me. Cruel, corrupt oppressive regime vs cruel corrupt oppressive regime. Its just a question of scale, and who's benefitting. Hell Putin even came up under the old regime. What do you like about Putin Russia so much?
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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 3.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It would be interesting to actually know how much of it was a self deluded justification or a willful misuse of authority. Did he and Bush just have information or follow a strategy that they believed in for the benefit of Western interests or was it pure callous self interest or personal ambition? I think they'd made a decision that they were going to invade Iraq. The US and UK, it was a fantastic opportunity to pump state money into private companies in the rebuilding, as well as securing oil reserves in a fully dependent ally (as well as a new client state). That's not to mention the wealth stimulation of military contractor firms on top of that (including the Private Security sector which has massively swelled). I think Blair to an extent saw it as his 'legacy' toppling the Iraq regime, but he knew what he was doing, plenty of people were telling him otherwise, and he leveraged and manipulated dissenters out of the way to clear the decks. It didn't really work out the way they wanted - I think they expected it would be a walk over, and they'd be welcomed like the Allied Forces across Europe were.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 10 Mar 17 3.47pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
RAWWWARRRR - It is to me. Cruel, corrupt oppressive regime vs cruel corrupt oppressive regime. Its just a question of scale, and who's benefitting. Hell Putin even came up under the old regime. What do you like about Putin Russia so much? I haven't said I like Putin - I don't. What I am saying is that it is a better place to live than under communist tyranny. Trying to pretend that they are basically the same is like saying Nazi Germany and the UK under Thatcher were more or less the same. Also, scale is important, perhaps 50 milllion killed by the communists, how many has Putin killed?
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Hrolf The Ganger 10 Mar 17 3.54pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think they'd made a decision that they were going to invade Iraq. The US and UK, it was a fantastic opportunity to pump state money into private companies in the rebuilding, as well as securing oil reserves in a fully dependent ally (as well as a new client state). That's not to mention the wealth stimulation of military contractor firms on top of that (including the Private Security sector which has massively swelled). I think Blair to an extent saw it as his 'legacy' toppling the Iraq regime, but he knew what he was doing, plenty of people were telling him otherwise, and he leveraged and manipulated dissenters out of the way to clear the decks. It didn't really work out the way they wanted - I think they expected it would be a walk over, and they'd be welcomed like the Allied Forces across Europe were. It's hard not to see it exactly like that.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Mar 17 4.07pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
I haven't said I like Putin - I don't. What I am saying is that it is a better place to live than under communist tyranny. Trying to pretend that they are basically the same is like saying Nazi Germany and the UK under Thatcher were more or less the same. Also, scale is important, perhaps 50 milllion killed by the communists, how many has Putin killed? Thing is, you're talking about a 80 year period, when the worst of the horror was committed under the regimes of Lenin and Stalin. Like the old soviet union post Stalin, you were safe as long as you didn't speak out or criticise the regime or protest. By the 80s and 90s, whilst still a corrupt and criminal regime, the situation had vastly changed. If I had to I'd say the crimes of the communist eras out weigh the Russian Federation. The Putin regime uses murder to silence critics, show trials to imprison protesters, violence and intimidation to keep the people in check. Then there are the reactions to uprisings in Chechneya and Georgia, which are on a par with the Hungary and Czechs spring atrocity. Its just a question of scale. Would I rather live in the old communist or under putin, I wouldn't want to live under either.
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