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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 2.43pm | |
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Originally posted by Username
I completely agree. But for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be happening does it? Bringing it back to football, I used to be massively against any type of 'positive discrimination' in terms of managerial vacancies. You look at the numbers though and have to wonder why there aren't more black managers. In NFL, the 'Rooney rule' might sound horrible on paper, but it ensures that more candidates get a chance. You don't have to hire a minority coach, you just have to ensure you interview one. I'm still not wild about the concept, but it's hard to deny that it does work. Before the Rooney rule (2003) there were only 7 minority coaches in the history of the NFL. Since then there have been 17. Still, that is sport and there is a vast leap from there to the criminal justice system. If it's tested in a trial and proven to work then ok I suppose. Any policy that gives advantage based on ethnicity is just plain wrong. I doubt many sensible black football professionals want to be seen as being given a hand up either. You get a job because you deserve it.
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Username Horsham 07 Mar 17 2.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Stifling free debate is only half of it. The liberal attitude proliferates among the gullible and young and pervades the politics of every walk of life. It is one thing to have a moral outlook, but another to use the pressure of public shaming based on the delusion of moral superiority for gain. As opposed to the millions who believed that the NHS was going to get £350 million extra, or that Trump was really going to lock up Hillary Clinton? Public shaming? It wasn't the Guardian who printed the names of the judges involved in the Article 50 decision and declared them enemies of the people.
Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time. |
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 2.46pm | |
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Originally posted by OknotOK
Agreed again and not really sure what the correct position should be - the status quo doesn't result in parity, but the adjustment to it is not parity in theory. Maybe judges should have league tables to show their past "performances"? The whole judiciary needs sorting out. There shold be no need for any policy. Sentencing should be determined by the crime and the risk to society.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Mar 17 2.49pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Rod Liddle summed this up well in a recent issue of the Spectator: "Try being a social worker who thinks gay adoptions are problematic. Or a doctor who disproves of abortion or gender transitioning. Or a student who quite likes Germaine Greer and wearing a sombrero. Or a teacher who thinks Trump is maybe OK. (The headmaster at a school in south London recently told pupils that if any child uttered the same sorts of words as Donald Trump about immigration, they'd be excluded.) Try being a judge who thinks an awful lot of hate crimes are imaginary or vexatious. In all cases you'd be drummed out. No job, You'd be finished. There would be tribunals - where you would be judged by other upholders of the liberal elite - and you'd be out. That is what we mean by the liberal elite." Liddle also addressed the notion mentioned here that we have had years of non left liberals in these positions: "I remember as a speechwriter for the Labour party in the early 1980s suggesting that we do something in support of the teachers, who were complaining about pay.'F**k them - they're all Tories' I was told. And so statistically they were at the time. And in the 1970s the BBC, the Church of England, the judiciary and the emergent quangos were small 'c' conservative. Elites last for about two generations. Our liberal elite has lasted since about 1985." Edited by hedgehog50 (06 Mar 2017 6.57pm) Of course a social worker who is against gay adoption has effectively taken a job which brings them into conflict with legal provision of adoption. Similarly a doctor who objects to abortion or transgendering, is placing their values ahead of their oath and job. Judges don't have discretion on what is and isn't a crime, that's established by government. Personal views don't really come into the judiciary. Having worked with a few, they tend to be vote conservative or liberal democrat and have interesting views about what they believe personally, and what they will endorse. They do tend to be quite authoritarian (which goes with the territory). Obviously, its a bit after my time as a student, but Germaine Greer tends to be quite high on a few reading lists. Plus my experience of university is that most students don't really give a s**t about politics either and don't fit the student stereotype at all (most being average dressed, ordinary kids rather than Student Gwants).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 2.50pm | |
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Originally posted by Username
As opposed to the millions who believed that the NHS was going to get £350 million extra, or that Trump was really going to lock up Hillary Clinton? Public shaming? It wasn't the Guardian who printed the names of the judges involved in the Article 50 decision and declared them enemies of the people. Whataboutery does not alter the reality and no one is suggesting that politicians and media of all types are not above hyperbole and playing to the mob.
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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Mar 17 2.50pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Stifling free debate is only half of it. The liberal attitude proliferates among the gullible and young and pervades the politics of every walk of life. It is one thing to have a moral outlook, but another to use the pressure of public shaming based on the delusion of moral superiority for gain. I rather suspect that most of the people you are referring to - the sort of tossers that go through public school, into the professions and to the top of society - what generally gets called the "Establishment" are many things; but Liberals they aint.
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Username Horsham 07 Mar 17 2.54pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Whataboutery does not alter the reality and no one is suggesting that politicians and media of all types are not above hyperbole and playing to the mob. So then why constantly throw slurs at people for being liberal because of things which are just as applicable to people with similar beliefs to yours?
Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time. |
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 3.04pm | |
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Originally posted by Username
So then why constantly throw slurs at people for being liberal because of things which are just as applicable to people with similar beliefs to yours? I actually don't have a problem with liberals. I believe they are broadly trying to do the right thing. My problem is that their idea of what the right thing is sometimes the wrong thing.
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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Mar 17 3.12pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Any policy that gives advantage based on ethnicity is just plain wrong. I doubt many sensible black football professionals want to be seen as being given a hand up either. You get a job because you deserve it. With regards to managers I agree with you. If you exclude the Asian population who have tended to be less interested in football then black/mixed race population is around 5% so there would be around five or six. Given that black players are "over-represented (for want of a better word) perhaps 25% why don't those numbers flow through to management? There would appear to be no prejudice against players - which makes sense. What manager isn't going to pick their best players but something is happening between ending playing and going into management. The answer isn't quotas or giving anyone an advantage but it is interesting that in the NFL the Rooney rule which purely required teams to interview minority candidates immediately transformed the number of appointments.
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 3.13pm | |
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Originally posted by Sedlescombe
I rather suspect that most of the people you are referring to - the sort of tossers that go through public school, into the professions and to the top of society - what generally gets called the "Establishment" are many things; but Liberals they aint. That is a separate problem and one that cannot be easily solved in a capitalist society. I can't see that denying people their inheritance is an option even if that advantage was originally based on some skullduggery of the past. Some people do go to Oxbridge on merit of course.
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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Mar 17 3.18pm | |
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Originally posted by Sedlescombe
With regards to managers I agree with you. If you exclude the Asian population who have tended to be less interested in football then black/mixed race population is around 5% so there would be around five or six. Given that black players are "over-represented (for want of a better word) perhaps 25% why don't those numbers flow through to management? There would appear to be no prejudice against players - which makes sense. What manager isn't going to pick their best players but something is happening between ending playing and going into management. The answer isn't quotas or giving anyone an advantage but it is interesting that in the NFL the Rooney rule which purely required teams to interview minority candidates immediately transformed the number of appointments. Is there an unspoken pressure?
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Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 07 Mar 17 3.25pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
That is a separate problem and one that cannot be easily solved in a capitalist society. I can't see that denying people their inheritance is an option even if that advantage was originally based on some skullduggery of the past. Some people do go to Oxbridge on merit of course. Having spent thirty years in the Liberal Party and the Liberal Democrats - and I owe the by-election in Croydon for that - until I resigned over the coalition it feels very much part of the same problem. Where you see a Liberal elite I see a complete absence of liberals though doubtless many of them are well-meaning enough. What I object to is people buying advantage for themselves and their family regardless of talent. Let people achieve based upon merit and abilities not because they were given a head start in life.
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