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Venezuela - socialist paradise
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jamiemartin721  Reading 07 Dec 15 11.33am |
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Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Catfish Burgess Hill 07 Dec 15 11.39am |
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Quote matt_himself at 09 Nov 2015 8.55am
Quote nickgusset at 07 Nov 2015 5.32pm
Interesting developments in Portugal... Is it me, or are a lot of the countries where it could be said that capitalism has failed are turning to the left as a response? Croatia has voted conservative. Is it me, or are a lot of European countries voting for anti immigration right wing parties because people are fed up with being told what to do and think about important matters by the elite, leftish project that is the EU?
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial |
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 Stuk Top half 07 Dec 15 11.44am |
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The socialists in France have all but given up after last nights first round of poll results. Came 3rd in that and have withdrawn candidates from the second round of votes, in the hope that Sarkozy's party beats the FN.
Optimistic as ever |
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| matt_himself Matataland 07 Dec 15 11.51am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory.
Jamie, yes oil prices have f***ed the country but what would a prudent government do with their two years of power? Spunk all the oil revenues and more up the wall in social engineering projects designed to keep themselves in power or diversify the economy to protect the county from the worst pain of the shocks? Chavez and troop of clowns opted for the former. You can't blame this on oil prices. Oil, like all commodities fluctuate, a 13 year old can tell you that, yet the government of Venzuela did nothing to protect their citizens against it.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Dec 15 11.57am |
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Quote matt_himself at 09 Nov 2015 8.55am
Quote nickgusset at 07 Nov 2015 5.32pm
Interesting developments in Portugal... Is it me, or are a lot of the countries where it could be said that capitalism has failed are turning to the left as a response? Croatia has voted conservative. Is it me, or are a lot of European countries voting for anti immigration right wing parties because people are fed up with being told what to do and think about important matters by the elite, leftish project that is the EU? Probably true. The irony of course is that anti-immigration parties are themselves as much of a problem in the making. Countries require immigration in order to florish and function effectively, the problem has always been the mainstream governments willingness to submit to corporate demands on immigration over social ones. Immigration has never been a problem, its the irresponsible manner in which immigration in countries, including the UK have been driven by corporate demands to keep wages low, rather than functionality. The left has failed to realise that immigration must function to serve society as a whole. We need immigration, but it has to be functional to the needs and benefit of society as a whole. The wholesale immigration has undermined the security and wellbeing of large sections of a traditionally left wing voters who have to live with the consequences, without reaping any benefits.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Dec 15 12.02pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.51am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory.
Jamie, yes oil prices have f***ed the country but what would a prudent government do with their two years of power? Spunk all the oil revenues and more up the wall in social engineering projects designed to keep themselves in power or diversify the economy to protect the county from the worst pain of the shocks? Chavez and troop of clowns opted for the former. You can't blame this on oil prices. Oil, like all commodities fluctuate, a 13 year old can tell you that, yet the government of Venzuela did nothing to protect their citizens against it. That's a failing, definitely, but then you could say the same about the economic crunch and any number of countries. Elected governments should be held accountable for their failures, and in this case, definitely, they have been. Democracy in action, the people holding government to account for their failures. But the same failures to provide for their citizens are what brought Chavez et al into power in the first place, and their policies are what kept them there for those three or four terms. I see it as democracy in action, governments held accountable by the voters.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| NickRobinson 08 Dec 15 7.01am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory. Like socialist China you mean? Where the workers enjoy high wages, full trade union rights and are not at all exploited?
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Dec 15 10.11am |
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Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 7.01am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory. Like socialist China you mean? Where the workers enjoy high wages, full trade union rights and are not at all exploited? I was thinking more of places like Europe, in which there has been a effective kind of balance between socialist ideas and capitalism, and as a result societies have benefited from the tempering of both ideologies, whilst experiencing the benefits of things like workers rights with free markets. As opposed to say the US which suffers from a great many problems caused by the failure to temper capitalism with socialist provision.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| NickRobinson 08 Dec 15 11.37am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Dec 2015 10.11am
Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 7.01am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory. Like socialist China you mean? Where the workers enjoy high wages, full trade union rights and are not at all exploited? I was thinking more of places like Europe, in which there has been a effective kind of balance between socialist ideas and capitalism, and as a result societies have benefited from the tempering of both ideologies, whilst experiencing the benefits of things like workers rights with free markets. As opposed to say the US which suffers from a great many problems caused by the failure to temper capitalism with socialist provision. All European countries are capitalist. Some have more state legislation and controls on private enterprise than others - but they are are capitalist. All of the socialist European regimes collapsed by 1990 under the weight of their contradictions and hopeless, unworkable, dogmatic 'economics'.
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Kermit8  Hevon 08 Dec 15 12.13pm |
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Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 11.37am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Dec 2015 10.11am
Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 7.01am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory. Like socialist China you mean? Where the workers enjoy high wages, full trade union rights and are not at all exploited? I was thinking more of places like Europe, in which there has been a effective kind of balance between socialist ideas and capitalism, and as a result societies have benefited from the tempering of both ideologies, whilst experiencing the benefits of things like workers rights with free markets. As opposed to say the US which suffers from a great many problems caused by the failure to temper capitalism with socialist provision. All European countries are capitalist. Some have more state legislation and controls on private enterprise than others - but they are are capitalist. All of the socialist European regimes collapsed by 1990 under the weight of their contradictions and hopeless, unworkable, dogmatic 'economics'.
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| matt_himself Matataland 08 Dec 15 12.34pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 12.13pm
Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 11.37am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Dec 2015 10.11am
Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 7.01am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory. Like socialist China you mean? Where the workers enjoy high wages, full trade union rights and are not at all exploited? I was thinking more of places like Europe, in which there has been a effective kind of balance between socialist ideas and capitalism, and as a result societies have benefited from the tempering of both ideologies, whilst experiencing the benefits of things like workers rights with free markets. As opposed to say the US which suffers from a great many problems caused by the failure to temper capitalism with socialist provision. All European countries are capitalist. Some have more state legislation and controls on private enterprise than others - but they are are capitalist. All of the socialist European regimes collapsed by 1990 under the weight of their contradictions and hopeless, unworkable, dogmatic 'economics'.
It's not a socialist country by definition. I don't know why you keep repeating this delusion you have.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 08 Dec 15 12.38pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 08 Dec 2015 12.34pm
Quote Kermit8 at 08 Dec 2015 12.13pm
Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 11.37am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Dec 2015 10.11am
Quote NickRobinson at 08 Dec 2015 7.01am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Dec 2015 11.33am
Quote matt_himself at 07 Dec 2015 11.22am
Venezuela does the right thing and votes the commies out: SerialBoredom - is this the fault of the opposition for 'not respecting democracy' or because the Commies have run the country appallingly over the past two decades? Well if they were voted out of power, that's a good thing, right, shows that its a democratic process - Communist regimes aren't exactly known for abiding by democratic mandates. I don't think losing an election necessarily invalidates everything they've done over the past 20 years either (same way that in 1998 the victory of New Labour didn't mean the preceding 18 years were a failure, but that society wants to go in a different direction built on that basis). The question should really be whether or not the country benefitted during those years and in what ways. Their recent economic problems are largely a result of the oil market (and would have been a problem pre-Chevez). The failure maybe of the Chavez Socialist era, is the continued dependency on one source of revenue market - but then that's a charge that could be levelled at any country that's suffered economic problems driven by global resources. Realistically speaking, I'd say that capitalism and socialism are dependent upon each other functionally (capitalism without socialism is prone to exploitation, where as socialism without capitalism tends towards stagnation). What will be interesting is how left approach the outcome of the election, and whether they respect and abide by it, rather than say try to stage a coup to dimiss the elected party which was the outcome of the Chavez victory. Like socialist China you mean? Where the workers enjoy high wages, full trade union rights and are not at all exploited? I was thinking more of places like Europe, in which there has been a effective kind of balance between socialist ideas and capitalism, and as a result societies have benefited from the tempering of both ideologies, whilst experiencing the benefits of things like workers rights with free markets. As opposed to say the US which suffers from a great many problems caused by the failure to temper capitalism with socialist provision. All European countries are capitalist. Some have more state legislation and controls on private enterprise than others - but they are are capitalist. All of the socialist European regimes collapsed by 1990 under the weight of their contradictions and hopeless, unworkable, dogmatic 'economics'.
It's not a socialist country by definition. I don't know why you keep repeating this delusion you have. You said that not me. Never have. I've said it is 'bordering on socialist' before but that's about it. Pay attention.
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