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Russell Brand - class warrior or complete bell end

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 08 Nov 14 10.26am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 Nov 2014 9.59am

Quote Mongo Like Clunge at 07 Nov 2014 8.25pm

Quote nickgusset at 07 Nov 2014 7.13pm
It's easier to take the piss out of the messenger than answer the questions / issues he brings up.


The message? The questions? Russell Brand's take on things - in my humble opinion, is akin to revolutionary tourettes. What is his message? I'm not sure even he knows, to be honest. It's so verbosely contrived that he actually talks himself around in a circle half the time.

Also, he's very keen to point out the failures of society without offering viable non-uptopian, practical solutions, reasonable alternatives or even just a consistent approach to any one issue.

Half the time it sounds like he's swallowed a thesaurus, vomited it back up and proceeded to sit and eat it, whilst discussing its merits. Most of what he says is a confused nonsense of pseudo-political, revolutionary rhetoric with no cognisant use in modern day socio-economic practices.

See, he has me at it now. PARKLIFE!


You just summed him up completely for me Mongo (Jim'll).


It's the modern day socia economic practices that he is arguing against, so of course it wouldn't. His main tenet is there has to be a better way, but that the establishment are unwilling to look for one as it doesn't favour them.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 08 Nov 14 10.27am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 Nov 2014 10.03am

Quote Percy of Peckham at 08 Nov 2014 9.28am

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with everything he says ...it should not detract from the fact he is incredibly irritating and at times obnoxious. I've never really been sure where his "talent" lies or why he is regarded as a celebrity. He is certainly not a warrior because he'd have to be someone I'd look up to - he'd probably make a great politician or a bell end as they are very similar in my book.


Agreed... he certainly lost any respect he might of had when he did that stunt on air with Woss taking the p1ss out of 'Manuel' and his grand-daughter.

Something that he has apologised for and profusely regrets.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 08 Nov 14 11.32am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

I have to admit to liking a lot of what Brand is saying.

He's attacking the establishment.....So obviously a lot of those within the establishment or have done quite well out of it are attacking him back.

Different day, same s***.....Vested interests aren't interested in suggestions that the structure of society is skewed or unfair.

Well.....Comparatively we live in one of the most fair countries in the world.....Still, it's like everything else and can be criticised for its corruptions, elitism and general, 'I'm Alrightism'.

Brand was criticised last year for having no alternative narratives when he criticised capitalism.....Now he writes a book that offers alternatives.....Fair enough.

I want a fairer capitalism than we have now....I also want a democracy that doesn't support such a large political class....A regularly incompetent and insulated elite that's way too large in this Internet age.

Brand offers alternatives to that.......I say there is nothing wrong with examining those narratives instead of insensibly attacking the source.


Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Nov 2014 11.34am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 08 Nov 14 12.02pm

Quote TUX at 07 Nov 2014 9.10pm

Russell Brand - class warrior or complete bell end
----------------------------

Two titles and neither really work. He's just a bloke who tries to 'open the eyes of the blinkered' I guess. Where's the harm in that?

[Link]


I can't disagree with anything Brand points out in that link. Matt if your interested in helping homeless people, I'd be interested in your views on what Brand is highlighting.

 

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Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 08 Nov 14 2.18pm Send a Private Message to Y Ddraig Goch Add Y Ddraig Goch as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Nov 2014 8.28am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Nov 2014 11.22pm

The man is a complete cock.

The capitalism he "hates" has allowed him to have a very comfy lifestyle including a rather lavish wedding by anyone's standards never mind a "revolutionary" and also fund his upcoming film.

The reality is that capitalism ultimately works because it fits in with human nature far better than any other well meaning "we are all equal" rhetoric

Doesn't exist, its a convenient phrase that's used to justify something as being an necessary truth, without the presentation of evidence - despite the fact that there is absolutely no real evidence of anything being classed as human nature outside of certain physiological reactions. To class a hypothetical concept as human nature is a poor rhetoric trick that is a secularised version of gods will or the right of kings etc.

The excellent [Link] is a good starting point for understanding the complexity of human nature as a subject (note that this has since been expanded to include twelve different perspective theories about human nature).



Jamie, we as in humans have progressed / regressed depending on your stance due to "human nature". We are animals, nothing more and nothing less.

Is capitalism perfect? No of course not and wanton greed cannot be allowed at the detriment of everyone else. However socialism never truly exists because even in socialist states someone is still getting f***ed over to make someone else richer.

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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The White Horse Flag 09 Nov 14 1.09am Send a Private Message to The White Horse Add The White Horse as a friend

Quote Johnny Eagles at 08 Nov 2014 9.21am

Quote nickgusset at 07 Nov 2014 6.13pm

Bit of a knob Russell is, but, having listened to a lot of his latest book, speaks a lot of truths.
The fact he has a lot of salient points is the reason, to my mind, why he is being crucified in the media as it is those who have their fingers in the metaphorical pies that he is railing against.

Example: fracking. We only hear good things about fracking in much of the news corps press, which a lot of people believe cos it's 'in the paper' with lots of lovely diagrams and stuff. Turns out, Murdoch is on the board of directors of a major fracking organisation in the states, so it's in his interest to make shale gas look all lovely. Of course he won't allow any negative press about it- poisoning the landscape, rendering water flammable etc etc cos it'll affect his profits.


So of course he is being discredited...

Edited by nickgusset (07 Nov 2014 6.15pm)


Do you read all of the news corp press every day? If not, how are you basing your assertion?

Fracking is controversial. Both sides are constantly aired in the media. The idea that there's a conspiracy to silence critics is frankly laughable.

More to the point, has Russell Brand said anything about fracking? Ever?

From what I understand his "thesis" is a hotchpotch of vaguely collectivist solutions to problems, such as energy supply in Brazil or whatever, to which he has added a tedious, anti-authoritarian cry for "revolution" against the "establishment", to which, one could argue, he actually belongs and is doing rather nicely out of it.

Funnily enough, I thought I'd google "The Times fracking" to see how balanced their articles are. Obviously I'd forgotten about the pay wall, but thought the first article that came up was comically biased:

Fracking ‘greener than solar panels’

Fracking to extract shale gas can be less environmentally damaging than installing solar panels or offshore wind turbines, a study has found.

The production of panels and turbines results in greater depletion of natural resources, toxicity to humans and impact on freshwater and marine organisms, according to the study by the University of Manchester.

Pretty embarrassing to even try to argue this. I'm not even particularly bothered about fracking, but to suggest it's greener than renewable energy is comical.

 


"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 09 Nov 14 1.26am Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Whatever you think of Brand and his politics, the fact he gets the eye-swivelling, frothy-mouthed loony green-ink brigade pissing their pants at the very sight and sound of him makes him good value for money in my book.

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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The White Horse Flag 09 Nov 14 1.43am Send a Private Message to The White Horse Add The White Horse as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 08 Nov 2014 9.10am

Anyone who says that these things shouldn't happen are derided and ridiculed. The greens are anti austerity so they're not being included in televised election debates because Murdoch and his mates stand to lose the most. If the greens are so wrong, let them in on the debate anyway and let Joe public see the arguments for and against. Could it be the anti austerity groups have a point? The establishment are scared of the alternative arguments, so they sweep it under the carpet and deride it. Brand has a point, but instead of arguing why he is wrong, he's ridiculed.

Current polling average (during a good period for the Greens), with the number of MPs in brackets:

Labour - 33 (257)
Tories - 32 (303)
UKIP - 16 (1)
Lib Dem - 8 (56)
Greens - 5 (1)

At the last general election, they got 0.9% of the vote and out of 310 seats I think they kept their deposit in about 5. It's not a conspiracy to keep certain views out of the debate, there simply has to be a line drawn somewhere and a party almost always failing to keep its deposit shouldn't be surprised to find itself on the wrong side of the line.

You're right that few people actually discuss his politics (a lot of playing the man and not the ball as has been mentioned), but he doesn't actually represent a politics that many people vote for. Why doesn't he just tell people to vote green? That's surely what his politics is closest to. There are 15 million people who don't vote up for grabs; if UKIP can attract millions of them, it can't be that hard.

 


"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 09 Nov 14 1.53am

Quote The White Horse at 09 Nov 2014 1.43am

Quote nickgusset at 08 Nov 2014 9.10am

Anyone who says that these things shouldn't happen are derided and ridiculed. The greens are anti austerity so they're not being included in televised election debates because Murdoch and his mates stand to lose the most. If the greens are so wrong, let them in on the debate anyway and let Joe public see the arguments for and against. Could it be the anti austerity groups have a point? The establishment are scared of the alternative arguments, so they sweep it under the carpet and deride it. Brand has a point, but instead of arguing why he is wrong, he's ridiculed.

Current polling average (during a good period for the Greens), with the number of MPs in brackets:

Labour - 33 (257)
Tories - 32 (303)
UKIP - 16 (1)
Lib Dem - 8 (56)
Greens - 5 (1)

At the last general election, they got 0.9% of the vote and out of 310 seats I think they kept their deposit in about 5. It's not a conspiracy to keep certain views out of the debate, there simply has to be a line drawn somewhere and a party almost always failing to keep its deposit shouldn't be surprised to find itself on the wrong side of the line.

You're right that few people actually discuss his politics (a lot of playing the man and not the ball as has been mentioned), but he doesn't actually represent a politics that many people vote for. Why doesn't he just tell people to vote green? That's surely what his politics is closest to. There are 15 million people who don't vote up for grabs; if UKIP can attract millions of them, it can't be that hard.


True to a degree, but when no-one in the mainstream media has even touched upon an alternative to austerity, even to rubbish it, or that the current hegemony is completely f***ed up and screwed is it no surprise that not many people question the current status quo.
Would UKIP have had as many votes had they not had all the media coverage initially?

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Nov 14 9.09am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Nov 2014 2.18pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Nov 2014 8.28am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Nov 2014 11.22pm

The man is a complete cock.

The capitalism he "hates" has allowed him to have a very comfy lifestyle including a rather lavish wedding by anyone's standards never mind a "revolutionary" and also fund his upcoming film.

The reality is that capitalism ultimately works because it fits in with human nature far better than any other well meaning "we are all equal" rhetoric

Doesn't exist, its a convenient phrase that's used to justify something as being an necessary truth, without the presentation of evidence - despite the fact that there is absolutely no real evidence of anything being classed as human nature outside of certain physiological reactions. To class a hypothetical concept as human nature is a poor rhetoric trick that is a secularised version of gods will or the right of kings etc.

The excellent [Link] is a good starting point for understanding the complexity of human nature as a subject (note that this has since been expanded to include twelve different perspective theories about human nature).



Jamie, we as in humans have progressed / regressed depending on your stance due to "human nature". We are animals, nothing more and nothing less.

Is capitalism perfect? No of course not and wanton greed cannot be allowed at the detriment of everyone else. However socialism never truly exists because even in socialist states someone is still getting f***ed over to make someone else richer.

The problem here is that you're redefining capitalism and socialism to mean something that they not, their economic systems of distribution, both have advantages and disadvantages. Capitalism didn't invent the idea of profit, just as Socialism didn't invent the idea of redistribution.

As to the first part, yes and no, we are biological entities and fundamentally animals, but our utilisation of biological determinism to simplify nature to easily reducible common shared factors. I'd present the same argument as applicable to 'dog nature' or 'gorilla' nature - in that certainly in most mammals, individual personality defines behaviour far more than biological nature and mammals learn their behaviours far more than they are born with them.

This is especially true in higher mammals when the necessity for competitive survival has been removed (ie domesticated animals). That's before you add the complexities of language into the functionality and formation of individuals.

Capitalism itself originated out of the production of the middle classes, through merchants and the rise of yeomanry, prior to which the concept of wealth as a characteristic of the individual was somewhat more constrained (wealth existed for what you could do with it, rather than as a means in and of itself, it was a tool to an end, rather than an end in its own right).

Capitalism is simply a progression from previous systems that will be surplanted by others, as it replaced others before it (indeed Capitalism of the earlier eras has itself been replaced by different forms of capitalism).

Capitalism was entirely dependent on five major factors. The rise of protestatism, the publication of 'Summa de arithmetica, geometria', industrialisation and the works of Adam Smith and the emergence of the merchant classes (and ultimately the middle classes).

It has no relationship really to human nature, beyond being developed by humans to suit the needs of thoe with power and status. As the emergent middle classes gained increasing social power, society changed more to reflect their interests (with power being ceded by the aristocratic land owners).

Prior to the rise of capitalism, the dominant system wasn't profit, it was land ownership.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Nov 14 9.12am

Quote nickgusset at 08 Nov 2014 10.26am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 Nov 2014 9.59am

Quote Mongo Like Clunge at 07 Nov 2014 8.25pm

Quote nickgusset at 07 Nov 2014 7.13pm
It's easier to take the piss out of the messenger than answer the questions / issues he brings up.


The message? The questions? Russell Brand's take on things - in my humble opinion, is akin to revolutionary tourettes. What is his message? I'm not sure even he knows, to be honest. It's so verbosely contrived that he actually talks himself around in a circle half the time.

Also, he's very keen to point out the failures of society without offering viable non-uptopian, practical solutions, reasonable alternatives or even just a consistent approach to any one issue.

Half the time it sounds like he's swallowed a thesaurus, vomited it back up and proceeded to sit and eat it, whilst discussing its merits. Most of what he says is a confused nonsense of pseudo-political, revolutionary rhetoric with no cognisant use in modern day socio-economic practices.

See, he has me at it now. PARKLIFE!


You just summed him up completely for me Mongo (Jim'll).


It's the modern day socia economic practices that he is arguing against, so of course it wouldn't. His main tenet is there has to be a better way, but that the establishment are unwilling to look for one as it doesn't favour them.

Also he isn't an economist. He's just a bloke highlighting that social injustice.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hoof Hearted 09 Nov 14 9.59am

Quote Seth at 09 Nov 2014 1.26am

Whatever you think of Brand and his politics, the fact he gets the eye-swivelling, frothy-mouthed loony green-ink brigade pissing their pants at the very sight and sound of him makes him good value for money in my book.


Very much like Clarkson then eh Seth?

 

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