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Bedroom tax

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 7.13pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 6.46pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 4.50pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 21 Feb 2013 4.11pm

This bill is not the smartest way to cut benefits / save money but what really grinds my gears Nick is that you always seem to want to punish people who have done well.


Where the fack have I ever written on here that I want to punish people who have done well for themselves?
You wrote 'seems' which is fair enough, however, I do feel that you are apportioning things that ain't there.


Nick, apologies if that was not the case but it was the comment below that gave me that impression.

"Many second properties lay empty. Compulsory purchase them and use them as social housing. It's a travesty that there are more housing spaces than people who require housing, it's just they cant access them."


My point there was that it seems ridiculous that as a society we have people struggling to find somewhere to live and also many empty properties. Not logical really is it?

 

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tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 21 Feb 13 7.15pm Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 6.30pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 5.06pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 4.05pm

It is absolute bollocks that 25-30% of the children anywhere in the UK are in actual poverty, not the lack of PC/Broadband/Sky definition, the actual unclean, unclothed and unfed definition. Why do you swallow such nonsense, nick?

Material deprivation looks at living standards such as:

A holiday away from home at least one week a year with family
Swimming at least once a month
Friends around for tea / snack once a fortnight
Celebrations on special occasions e.g. birthdays
Going on a school trip at least once a term

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 5.10pm)


Like I said, not actual poverty. That online bit doesn't refer to broadband then, no?

All the bits in bold are just plucked out of thin air, none define poverty.

I'd agree with this. I think there needs to be a clear line between what people need, and what makes their lives easier.

What do people need?

Shelter
Food
Water
Electricity / heating

And some semblance of forward progress / development.

I think their are extra things that some need, for example people with disabilities. Most other things are subject to choices.

 


A one and a two...

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 7.41pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 6.30pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 5.06pm

Quote Stuk at 21 Feb 2013 4.05pm

It is absolute bollocks that 25-30% of the children anywhere in the UK are in actual poverty, not the lack of PC/Broadband/Sky definition, the actual unclean, unclothed and unfed definition. Why do you swallow such nonsense, nick?

I got my info from here [Link]
a report from the child poverty action group. endchildpoverty.org

Child poverty has no hard and fast definition...

from [Link]

The European Union's working definition of poverty is:

'Persons, families and groups of persons whose resources (material, cultural and social) are so limited as to exclude them from the minimum acceptable way of life in the Member State to which they belong'.

The UK Government, following the consultation on "Measuring Child Poverty", set out three approaches to examining and measuring child poverty in the UK over time:

Absolute low income: this indicator measures whether the poorest families are seeing their income rise in real terms. The level is fixed as equal to the relative low-income threshold for the baseline year of 1998-99 expressed in today's prices;

Relative low income: this measures whether the poorest families are keeping pace with the growth of incomes in the economy as a whole. This indicator measures the number of children living in households below 60 % of contemporary median equivalised household income. It compares the incomes of the less well off in a society to that of the 'typical household' so threshold changes as wealth of society changes ('moving poverty line').

Material deprivation and low income combined: this indicator provides a wider measure of people's living standards. This indicator measures the number of children living in households that are both materially deprived and have an income below 70% of contemporary median equivalised household income. Material deprivation looks at living standards such as:

A holiday away from home at least one week a year with family
Swimming at least once a month
Friends around for tea / snack once a fortnight
Celebrations on special occasions e.g. birthdays
Going on a school trip at least once a term


According to our definition, children are living in severe poverty if they live in a household with an income of below 50 per cent of the median (after housing costs), and where both adults and children lack at least one basic necessity, and either adults or children or both groups lack at least two basic necessities.

So no mention of Sky/Broadband etc, however if you think that everyone has Sky /cable or broadband then you are blinkered.

[Link]
has some facts about those with home internet access..

While the majority of people in the UK have access to the internet, there are still 10 million people who do not.

Of these people, 4 million are are the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the country.

49% of people without access are in the lowest socio-economic groups (DE)


70% of people who live in social housing aren't online

It has to be said that this research was carried out in 2009 so not entirely accurate, but I'm sure it's still a fairly reasonable representation.
The ons state that 80% of households had internet access [Link] however it doesn't break it down into socio-economic groups.

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 5.10pm)


Like I said, not actual poverty. That online bit doesn't refer to broadband then, no?

All the bits in bold are just plucked out of thin air, none define poverty.


No that was a bit at the end that tried to define material deprivation. The website brought together different definitions of what poverty is.
Perhaps you should get onto the respected charity and add your definition of poor = dirty, scruffy and no sky or broadband (I'm paraphrasing you there)

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 7.43pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 21 Feb 2013 5.11pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 3.55pm
Labour (much as I deplore them) did a lot t get thousands of children out of poverty. This is being reversed by the current lot.
The bedroom 'tax' is going to affect children and the disabled, yet according to you, this cannot be mentioned in a debate about the effects because it is sentimental and devalues the argument. How can one argue against something with you Johnny if they are not allowed to mention the people it directly affects?

I didn't say don't mention them. Just try and do so without all the heartstrings crap. Any cut to benefits causes people to lose money. Welcome to the real world. But picking on one individual case and using it to criticise a policy on the basis of emotion rather than reason and logic is sentimentalism, plain and simple.

And how the f*ck did we get onto child poverty? I'll tell you how - because you randomly decided to whack it into the mix because you think it supports your point, when actually it’s irrelevant. Because your argument isn’t based on facts and logic, it’s based on painting the Coalition as milk-snatching, grandads-in-cupboards-locking villains.

Oh and you can choose to believe as many statistics thrown at you by political parties as you like (“Labour reduced child poverty! Iron Production has reached all-time high!”) but I’m going to take them with a mountain of salt, thank you.

[Link]

Some testimonies on this site about the effect of a reduction in benefits if you have a spare room.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 8.01pm

IDS must have read this thread

[Link]

 

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Pussay Patrol Flag 21 Feb 13 9.02pm

We can debate the merits of this policy which obviously isn't going to be popular and maybe the logistics and costs may not weigh up, however, I feel there is a bigger picture in that the government is trying to smash the ideology of a welfare state as a lifestyle choice.

I'm all for people in genuine need being supported and they should be isolated but as i've said before our welfare bill is way to big and as a taxpayer I want to see it brought down.

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 9.05pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.02pm

We can debate the merits of this policy which obviously isn't going to be popular and maybe the logistics and costs may not weigh up, however, I feel there is a bigger picture in that the government is trying to smash the ideology of a welfare state as a lifestyle choice.

I'm all for people in genuine need being supported and they should be isolated but as i've said before our welfare bill is way to big and as a taxpayer I want to see it brought down.


How many people do you think choose to be on benefits compared to those on benefits who would rather work?

 

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Bin Liner Flag London , Southfields 21 Feb 13 9.07pm Send a Private Message to Bin Liner Add Bin Liner as a friend

Quote Johnny Eagles at 31 Oct 2012 2.25pm

Put me in charge of welfare, then you'd really have something to moan about.

agree, they'd be screaming for the Nasty Party to come back.

 


Portillo's teeth removed to boost pound

Boy roasts himself in sacrifice to Chris Kelly

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Pussay Patrol Flag 21 Feb 13 9.49pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 9.05pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.02pm

We can debate the merits of this policy which obviously isn't going to be popular and maybe the logistics and costs may not weigh up, however, I feel there is a bigger picture in that the government is trying to smash the ideology of a welfare state as a lifestyle choice.

I'm all for people in genuine need being supported and they should be isolated but as i've said before our welfare bill is way to big and as a taxpayer I want to see it brought down.


How many people do you think choose to be on benefits compared to those on benefits who would rather work?

No idea but I refuse to believe such a large proportion of people need state support, either that or benefits are too high. Of all the tax collected by the state about 1/3rd is swallowed up by welfare, more than schools, hospitals, everything else. It's the biggest single cost to the taxpayer.

The only way to get it down is to break the cycle of culture

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 10.12pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.49pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 9.05pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.02pm

We can debate the merits of this policy which obviously isn't going to be popular and maybe the logistics and costs may not weigh up, however, I feel there is a bigger picture in that the government is trying to smash the ideology of a welfare state as a lifestyle choice.

I'm all for people in genuine need being supported and they should be isolated but as i've said before our welfare bill is way to big and as a taxpayer I want to see it brought down.


How many people do you think choose to be on benefits compared to those on benefits who would rather work?

No idea but I refuse to believe such a large proportion of people need state support, either that or benefits are too high. Of all the tax collected by the state about 1/3rd is swallowed up by welfare, more than schools, hospitals, everything else. It's the biggest single cost to the taxpayer.

The only way to get it down is to break the cycle of culture


How do you propose to break the cycle of culture (?)(I assume that the word benefit is missing from that phrase) without adversely affecting those who are not taking the pish?

Where did you get your figure of 1/3 of uk taxes going to benefits.

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 10.23pm)

 

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Pussay Patrol Flag 21 Feb 13 10.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 10.12pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.49pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 9.05pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.02pm

We can debate the merits of this policy which obviously isn't going to be popular and maybe the logistics and costs may not weigh up, however, I feel there is a bigger picture in that the government is trying to smash the ideology of a welfare state as a lifestyle choice.

I'm all for people in genuine need being supported and they should be isolated but as i've said before our welfare bill is way to big and as a taxpayer I want to see it brought down.


How many people do you think choose to be on benefits compared to those on benefits who would rather work?

No idea but I refuse to believe such a large proportion of people need state support, either that or benefits are too high. Of all the tax collected by the state about 1/3rd is swallowed up by welfare, more than schools, hospitals, everything else. It's the biggest single cost to the taxpayer.

The only way to get it down is to break the cycle of culture


How do you propose to break the cycle of culture (?)(I assume that the word benefit is missing from that phrase) without adversely affecting those who are not taking the pish?

Where did you get your figure of 1/3 of uk taxes going to benefits.

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 10.23pm)


[Link]

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 21 Feb 13 10.38pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 10.33pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 10.12pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.49pm

Quote nickgusset at 21 Feb 2013 9.05pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 21 Feb 2013 9.02pm

We can debate the merits of this policy which obviously isn't going to be popular and maybe the logistics and costs may not weigh up, however, I feel there is a bigger picture in that the government is trying to smash the ideology of a welfare state as a lifestyle choice.

I'm all for people in genuine need being supported and they should be isolated but as i've said before our welfare bill is way to big and as a taxpayer I want to see it brought down.


How many people do you think choose to be on benefits compared to those on benefits who would rather work?

No idea but I refuse to believe such a large proportion of people need state support, either that or benefits are too high. Of all the tax collected by the state about 1/3rd is swallowed up by welfare, more than schools, hospitals, everything else. It's the biggest single cost to the taxpayer.

The only way to get it down is to break the cycle of culture


How do you propose to break the cycle of culture (?)(I assume that the word benefit is missing from that phrase) without adversely affecting those who are not taking the pish?

Where did you get your figure of 1/3 of uk taxes going to benefits.

Edited by nickgusset (21 Feb 2013 10.23pm)


[Link]

A lovely pie chart (I wonder who J A Smith is?) but where are the figures derived from?

 

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