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davenotamonkey 05 May 16 3.16pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
Thank you for posting this jamie you have saved me some time. Its a nice day and we all could be enjoying the sunshine. Ohhhhh! I see! "Based on your experience". And who are we, or indeed ex EU Vice President Commissioner Viviane Reding, to argue with "your experience"? After all, what does she know, right?
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JohnyBoy 05 May 16 3.20pm | |
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Originally posted by npn
Would it? Not questioning the validity of your argument, necessarily, just interested to hear why/how a pre-written agreement would need to change because of a change in the EU membership I dont understand it exactly to be honest npn but i was told that if we withdraw specifically from the european human rights act replacing it with a British Bill of Rights then references to the ehra would have to be reworded. This i understand would be an issue for nationalists ...no sources i'm afraid, so you may conclude its bolash if that suits but i can see how issues could arise
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npn Crowborough 05 May 16 3.26pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
I dont understand it exactly to be honest npn but i was told that if we withdraw specifically from the european human rights act replacing it with a British Bill of Rights then references to the ehra would have to be reworded. This i understand would be an issue for nationalists ...no sources i'm afraid, so you may conclude its bolash if that suits but i can see how issues could arise That's fair enough. I was just thinking that, even if the agreement specifically states that everything falls under the EHRA, I couldn't see why that would be an issue unless one or other party wanted to change that (and, as you say, I couldn't imagine a situation where either party would want to rock the boat too much for no discernible benefit)
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JohnyBoy 05 May 16 3.35pm | |
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Originally posted by npn
That's fair enough. I was just thinking that, even if the agreement specifically states that everything falls under the EHRA, I couldn't see why that would be an issue unless one or other party wanted to change that (and, as you say, I couldn't imagine a situation where either party would want to rock the boat too much for no discernible benefit) True, but the possible danger is that the DUP which has always claimed (perhaps provocatively) to be against the GFA would see it as an opportunity to get it changed, so that it then falls under a British system which is what their main gripe is...ofcourse being unacceptable to more hardline nationalists....i just wince at all that b@llocks kicking off again
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davenotamonkey 05 May 16 3.38pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
No. I get it. I just don't quite understanding why you are writing it? It's just silly. You are basically saying Switzerland can trade with the rest of world and tap into untold tens of trillions. No they can't. They haven't got the population, industry, infrastructure, capacity to come anywhere near achieving what you are insinuating. A very silly angle, indeed. Keep digging, diverting and poking. It makes you look a little stupid. You've moved from "ha typo!" to "niggling on a word" and finally to "waaah! It doesn't mean anything! Waaah!". What next? I don't pretend to be an expert in economics, but to suggest that the Swiss cannot capitalise on markets of that size, when they have the highest GDP/capita and deal extensively in financial services ("industry"?? - actual lol) is frankly laughable. Moreover, it suggests the availability of such markets to Swiss companies for growth potential and emerging market exploitation is (conveniently, for your ideology) not a metric for trading success. So, I take from your argument that we shouldn't be out of the EU and free to open up huge markets to free trade, because we can't maximise our benefit from it? Is that really your argument? Poor little Iceland trading with the Chinese! How shortsighted of them not to give that up and join the EU, where they would enjoy er... none of the trade deals they previously had. By your logic, FTAs should only ever be signed by economies of the same scale, right? Shall we ask the EU why they just signed an FTA with Serbia then?
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jamiemartin721 Reading 05 May 16 3.53pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
I dont understand it exactly to be honest npn but i was told that if we withdraw specifically from the european human rights act replacing it with a British Bill of Rights then references to the ehra would have to be reworded. This i understand would be an issue for nationalists ...no sources i'm afraid, so you may conclude its bolash if that suits but i can see how issues could arise Its the 1998 Human Rights Act, an act of the UK Parliament. Arguably the act actually makes the UK less dependent on the European court, as prior to this rights based legislation could not be resolved in UK courts (only the European Court). The establishment of the act simply means that the UK courts could deal with cases, directly, and only needs to refer them up to the European Court of Human Rights. There is absolutely no need for a Bill of Rights, as UK citizens already have a series of rights, defined in law, and would still require an independent court of arbitration to review conflicts within law (which must be political neutral - which is why the European court makes sense, as it can always appoint judges unaffiliated to the country and parties in question, that has a specialisation in constitutional law, as well as providing a large pool of judges to choose from), with the costs deferred across all of the member states.
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JohnyBoy 05 May 16 3.56pm | |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
Ohhhhh! I see! "Based on your experience". And who are we, or indeed ex EU Vice President Commissioner Viviane Reding, to argue with "your experience"? After all, what does she know, right? Oooo...Whatever dude...i think most peoples day to day experience would be similar to mine, i.e. eu law just doesnt interfere. I am having some conveyancing done this week and yip...not even mentioned
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Kermit8 Hevon 05 May 16 4.02pm | |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
Keep digging, diverting and poking. It makes you look a little stupid. You've moved from "ha typo!" to "niggling on a word" and finally to "waaah! It doesn't mean anything! Waaah!". What next? I don't pretend to be an expert in economics, but to suggest that the Swiss cannot capitalise on markets of that size, when they have the highest GDP/capita and deal extensively in financial services ("industry"?? - actual lol) is frankly laughable. Moreover, it suggests the availability of such markets to Swiss companies for growth potential and emerging market exploitation is (conveniently, for your ideology) not a metric for trading success. So, I take from your argument that we shouldn't be out of the EU and free to open up huge markets to free trade, because we can't maximise our benefit from it? Is that really your argument? Poor little Iceland trading with the Chinese! How shortsighted of them not to give that up and join the EU, where they would enjoy er... none of the trade deals they previously had. By your logic, FTAs should only ever be signed by economies of the same scale, right? Shall we ask the EU why they just signed an FTA with Serbia then? You are all bluster and 'fact'. Exaggerated fact. You do understand re:trade you are talking in the distant future. Not next year, not even this decade but agreements that won't be signed, if at all, until quite a few years hence. So what do you suggest we do in the meantime on Brexit to all those that will be affected negatively by it? Just tell them to 'suck it up' ' we are gonna be as rich as the Swiss by 2030. Possibly. Maybe.' Great plan.
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davenotamonkey 05 May 16 4.41pm | |
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Originally posted by JohnyBoy
Oooo...Whatever dude...i think most peoples day to day experience would be similar to mine, i.e. eu law just doesnt interfere. I am having some conveyancing done this week and yip...not even mentioned Yes, most people's day-to-day experience is exposure to the UK laws that merely rubberstamp EU law. So indeed you likely are very ignorant of it... ...Otherwise you would have presumably heard of the EU Mortgage Credit Directive (2014/17/EU) rather than the UK law that makes us "compliant". I'm sure it's a great directive though. It's prevented the great unwashed from securing cheaper mortgages. Great, eh? Don't worry - it also impacts conveyancing, but "yip" it's not even mentioned. Then, of course, there's the Cross-Border Conveyancing Reference Framework. Also nothing to do with the EU, no, it really isn't "dude".
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JohnyBoy 05 May 16 4.44pm | |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
Yes, most people's day-to-day experience is exposure to the UK laws that merely rubberstamp EU law. So indeed you likely are very ignorant of it... ...Otherwise you would have presumably heard of the EU Mortgage Credit Directive (2014/17/EU) rather than the UK law that makes us "compliant". I'm sure it's a great directive though. It's prevented the great unwashed from securing cheaper mortgages. Great, eh? Don't worry - it also impacts conveyancing, but "yip" it's not even mentioned. Then, of course, there's the Cross-Border Conveyancing Reference Framework. Also nothing to do with the EU, no, it really isn't "dude". Ok atleast this time i didnt get the John Inmann impression!!!
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davenotamonkey 05 May 16 5.17pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
You are all bluster and 'fact'. Exaggerated fact. You do understand re:trade you are talking in the distant future. Not next year, not even this decade but agreements that won't be signed, if at all, until quite a few years hence. So what do you suggest we do in the meantime on Brexit to all those that will be affected negatively by it? Just tell them to 'suck it up' ' we are gonna be as rich as the Swiss by 2030. Possibly. Maybe.' Great plan.
Now - are you talking about the lethargic EU trade-wagon? "not even this decade" - you're referring to an EU-China FTA, right? Or maybe that one with India that's dragged on for a DECADE? Or EU-Australia? When will that complete? OK, let's look elsewhere. The US signed an FTA with Australia within 18 months. That's the US, with all it's complexities. Japan managed a trade agreement with India within 4 years. Malaysia managed an agreement with India in 3 years. But fine. Let me directly address your point. I think you're trying to say that when we suddenly find ourselves cruelly cast-adrift away from Europe, all alone amongst those 160+ other countries that are also alone, we'll be "negatively affected". For **decades**!!! Gasp! Negatively affected... By what? The trade agreements we don't have ANYWAY with the likes of Australia, China, the US, India? What would change then? We trade with them as we do already (accounting for over 55% of our exports) under the EU: with no deal. Until we reach agreement with them (decades, yeah, right, I know... decades - the UK is special, all the examples I cite above don't take into account how we are somehow "special" and exempt from the norms). Ah, the EU. Trading with the EU - that's going to be a problem, right? They wont want to trade with us, will they? I mean, we don't have a huge trade deficit with them, do we? But OK. In their final act, like a vengeful abusive spouse, they get nasty and make trade as hard as they can. OK. No more than allowed by WTO rules (1.5% on um... on what? remember the trade deficit). The cost to trade of that 1.5% is totally swallowed up by the huge net contributions we would no longer be paying. But there are other ways of being mean to us, right? Sure. But if they do, then they'd be breaking Article 8 of their own treaty. I'd love for the UK to take them to the ECJ for that. It would be hilarious.
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Kermit8 Hevon 05 May 16 6.47pm | |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
Now - are you talking about the lethargic EU trade-wagon? "not even this decade" - you're referring to an EU-China FTA, right? Or maybe that one with India that's dragged on for a DECADE? Or EU-Australia? When will that complete? OK, let's look elsewhere. The US signed an FTA with Australia within 18 months. That's the US, with all it's complexities. Japan managed a trade agreement with India within 4 years. Malaysia managed an agreement with India in 3 years. But fine. Let me directly address your point. I think you're trying to say that when we suddenly find ourselves cruelly cast-adrift away from Europe, all alone amongst those 160+ other countries that are also alone, we'll be "negatively affected". For **decades**!!! Gasp! Negatively affected... By what? The trade agreements we don't have ANYWAY with the likes of Australia, China, the US, India? What would change then? We trade with them as we do already (accounting for over 55% of our exports) under the EU: with no deal. Until we reach agreement with them (decades, yeah, right, I know... decades - the UK is special, all the examples I cite above don't take into account how we are somehow "special" and exempt from the norms). Ah, the EU. Trading with the EU - that's going to be a problem, right? They wont want to trade with us, will they? I mean, we don't have a huge trade deficit with them, do we? But OK. In their final act, like a vengeful abusive spouse, they get nasty and make trade as hard as they can. OK. No more than allowed by WTO rules (1.5% on um... on what? remember the trade deficit). The cost to trade of that 1.5% is totally swallowed up by the huge net contributions we would no longer be paying. But there are other ways of being mean to us, right? Sure. But if they do, then they'd be breaking Article 8 of their own treaty. I'd love for the UK to take them to the ECJ for that. It would be hilarious. Your posts are very interesting but they are all supposition. You want to take the risk and leave. Fair enough. But I think you may have talked yourself into believing there is no risk. Well, not a significant one with your 'rationale'. Dangerous territory.
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