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Stirlingsays 28 Jun 17 11.31pm
Originally posted by Mstrobez But you did do that didn't you . I'd argue it's fairly hard to assertain the meaning of any vote and to bring a decision as big as this down to a yes or no vote was one of the most idiotic things any prime minister has ever done. Farage mentioned Switzerland and Norway on many occasions, that indicates at the very least that the terms of our exit can be argued and to suggest everyone wanted to just completely f*** the EU off is speculative at best. No not really...I may disagree with them but in general I think most people have some idea. It's like I say....out of every group who vote for whatever there will always be a percent who vote out of tribalism or 'insert reason' where they will change their minds later...or indeed double down. As this is true for any vote for anyone it's just a false argument to use for the Brexit vote. Like I say, we could use the same argument for those who voted Corbyn. It isn't an argument I use because i see the flaws in it. That's why I'm criticising the argument here. As an aside..it isn't just two options on Brexit, there were three...You weren't forced to vote. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Jun 2017 11.32pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Jun 17 11.31pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

But you did do that didn't you . I'd argue it's fairly hard to assertain the meaning of any vote and to bring a decision as big as this down to a yes or no vote was one of the most idiotic things any prime minister has ever done. Farage mentioned Switzerland and Norway on many occasions, that indicates at the very least that the terms of our exit can be argued and to suggest everyone wanted to just completely f*** the EU off is speculative at best.

No not really...I may disagree with them but in general I think most people have some idea. It's like I say....out of every group who vote for whatever there will always be a percent who vote out of tribalism or 'insert reason' where they will change their minds later...or indeed double down.

As this is true for any vote for anyone it's just a false argument to use for the Brexit vote.

Like I say, we could use the same argument for those who voted Corbyn. It isn't an argument I use because i see the flaws in it.

That's why I'm criticising the argument here.

As an aside..it isn't just two options on Brexit, there were three...You weren't forced to vote.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Jun 2017 11.32pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 29 Jun 17 9.55am
I see that Albanian drug gangs based in London are cornering the UK cocaine market. The National Crime Agency says they are characterised by their readiness to resort to serious violence. No doubt the NHS would collapse of course if it wasn't for Albanians. Albania will soon be a full member of the EU. Edited by hedgehog50 (29 Jun 2017 9.55am) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 29 Jun 17 9.55am

I see that Albanian drug gangs based in London are cornering the UK cocaine market. The National Crime Agency says they are characterised by their readiness to resort to serious violence. No doubt the NHS would collapse of course if it wasn't for Albanians. Albania will soon be a full member of the EU.

Edited by hedgehog50 (29 Jun 2017 9.55am)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Kermit8 Hevon 29 Jun 17 10.03am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 I see that Albanian drug gangs based in London are cornering the UK cocaine market. The National Crime Agency says they are characterised by their readiness to resort to serious violence. No doubt the NHS would collapse of course if it wasn't for Albanians. Albania will soon be a full member of the EU. Edited by hedgehog50 (29 Jun 2017 9.55am) It's ok. Once we are out our very own pleasant Scouse, British Yardies and Glaswegian gangs can take over again. Hoo-rah for Brexit Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 29 Jun 17 10.03am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Edited by hedgehog50 (29 Jun 2017 9.55am)

It's ok. Once we are out our very own pleasant Scouse, British Yardies and Glaswegian gangs can take over again.

Hoo-rah for Brexit

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Username Horsham 29 Jun 17 11.15am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 I see that Albanian drug gangs based in London are cornering the UK cocaine market. The National Crime Agency says they are characterised by their readiness to resort to serious violence. No doubt the NHS would collapse of course if it wasn't for Albanians. Albania will soon be a full member of the EU. Edited by hedgehog50 (29 Jun 2017 9.55am) So is the problem the EU or border controls? If they aren't in the EU yet, why is that relevant? They're clearly getting in anyway. Of course, if we were both in the EU we'd have access to their criminal justice system and would be able to apprehend criminals who end up here. Besides, 'will soon be a full member', according to wiki, of the 35 chapters that need to be negotiated before a country gains access to the EU, Albania currently has achieved 0 out of 33, with two requiring 'nothing to adopt'. One area (foreign, security and defence policy) is classified as 'good level of preparation'. It has 17 that are 'moderately prepared', ten that are 'some level of preparation' and five that are still 'early stage'. It's not like they're joining the EU tomorrow. Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time.
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Username

Horsham 29 Jun 17 11.15am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Edited by hedgehog50 (29 Jun 2017 9.55am)

So is the problem the EU or border controls? If they aren't in the EU yet, why is that relevant? They're clearly getting in anyway. Of course, if we were both in the EU we'd have access to their criminal justice system and would be able to apprehend criminals who end up here.

Besides, 'will soon be a full member', according to wiki, of the 35 chapters that need to be negotiated before a country gains access to the EU, Albania currently has achieved 0 out of 33, with two requiring 'nothing to adopt'.

One area (foreign, security and defence policy) is classified as 'good level of preparation'. It has 17 that are 'moderately prepared', ten that are 'some level of preparation' and five that are still 'early stage'. It's not like they're joining the EU tomorrow.

Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time.

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steeleye20 Croydon 29 Jun 17 11.26am
Originally posted by Username So is the problem the EU or border controls? If they aren't in the EU yet, why is that relevant? They're clearly getting in anyway. Of course, if we were both in the EU we'd have access to their criminal justice system and would be able to apprehend criminals who end up here. Besides, 'will soon be a full member', according to wiki, of the 35 chapters that need to be negotiated before a country gains access to the EU, Albania currently has achieved 0 out of 33, with two requiring 'nothing to adopt'. One area (foreign, security and defence policy) is classified as 'good level of preparation'. It has 17 that are 'moderately prepared', ten that are 'some level of preparation' and five that are still 'early stage'. It's not like they're joining the EU tomorrow. What is the purpose of the National Crime Agency? To inform us about Albanian drug gangs what could we possibly do. I shall certainly be vigilant on my way to Tesco Express this week.
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steeleye20

Croydon 29 Jun 17 11.26am

Originally posted by Username

What is the purpose of the National Crime Agency?

To inform us about Albanian drug gangs what could we possibly do.

I shall certainly be vigilant on my way to Tesco Express this week.

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Hansy 29 Jun 17 5.58pm
Labour Manifesto said it would remove the white paper in the negotiations for brexit and replace it with wanting to stay in the single market and customs union. Roughly 160 Labour MPs defied Chucka and did not vote in favour. And they say the Tories are split? Very bad day for Labour.
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Hansy

29 Jun 17 5.58pm

Labour Manifesto said it would remove the white paper in the negotiations for brexit and replace it with wanting to stay in the single market and customs union.

Roughly 160 Labour MPs defied Chucka and did not vote in favour. And they say the Tories are split? Very bad day for Labour.

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Mstrobez 30 Jun 17 2.55am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays No not really...I may disagree with them but in general I think most people have some idea. It's like I say....out of every group who vote for whatever there will always be a percent who vote out of tribalism or 'insert reason' where they will change their minds later...or indeed double down. As this is true for any vote for anyone it's just a false argument to use for the Brexit vote. Like I say, we could use the same argument for those who voted Corbyn. It isn't an argument I use because i see the flaws in it. That's why I'm criticising the argument here. As an aside..it isn't just two options on Brexit, there were three...You weren't forced to vote. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Jun 2017 11.32pm) I accept what you're saying but surely the staunchest brexiteers would argue there isn't even any need for any negotiations and we should just fall back on WTO rules and get out straight away. There's also, of course, many backing the government for a need to negotiate some kind of trade deal with the EU (thank God). But there are also undoubtedly people, which we cannot account accurately, who would've seen someone like Farage consistently bringing up the happiness in Norway and prosperity in Switzerland and were subsequently influenced by those comparisons in the way they eventually voted. You can't constantly bring Norway and Switzerland up to suit your argument and win votes when you're demonstrably against us being even remotely like them - because that isn't making a prediction and getting it wrong, that's just straight up deceit and manipulation. And he wasn't the only to do this, but for obvious reasons he's a very good example. Following the "brexit means brexit" rhetoric is kind of meanlingless because it's a rejection of any interpretation of what the exit arrangement would be that differs from yours, and whether leavers like it or not there are different interpretations to what leaving would mean. Even if a "soft" brexit isn't possible or is wrong, it shouldn't be hounded out of any debate, in a result as close as this, when it is impossible to say what the entire (or even majority) of the 52% were voting for. The overall destination should be debated and scrutinised, and the public should be consulted on the terms of exit or, for the reasons given above, it's actually quite undemocratic. Edited by Mstrobez (30 Jun 2017 3.01am) Edited by Mstrobez (30 Jun 2017 3.13am) We're the Arthur over ere!
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Mstrobez

30 Jun 17 2.55am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

As this is true for any vote for anyone it's just a false argument to use for the Brexit vote.

Like I say, we could use the same argument for those who voted Corbyn. It isn't an argument I use because i see the flaws in it.

That's why I'm criticising the argument here.

As an aside..it isn't just two options on Brexit, there were three...You weren't forced to vote.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Jun 2017 11.32pm)

I accept what you're saying but surely the staunchest brexiteers would argue there isn't even any need for any negotiations and we should just fall back on WTO rules and get out straight away. There's also, of course, many backing the government for a need to negotiate some kind of trade deal with the EU (thank God). But there are also undoubtedly people, which we cannot account accurately, who would've seen someone like Farage consistently bringing up the happiness in Norway and prosperity in Switzerland and were subsequently influenced by those comparisons in the way they eventually voted.

You can't constantly bring Norway and Switzerland up to suit your argument and win votes when you're demonstrably against us being even remotely like them - because that isn't making a prediction and getting it wrong, that's just straight up deceit and manipulation. And he wasn't the only to do this, but for obvious reasons he's a very good example.

Following the "brexit means brexit" rhetoric is kind of meanlingless because it's a rejection of any interpretation of what the exit arrangement would be that differs from yours, and whether leavers like it or not there are different interpretations to what leaving would mean. Even if a "soft" brexit isn't possible or is wrong, it shouldn't be hounded out of any debate, in a result as close as this, when it is impossible to say what the entire (or even majority) of the 52% were voting for. The overall destination should be debated and scrutinised, and the public should be consulted on the terms of exit or, for the reasons given above, it's actually quite undemocratic.

Edited by Mstrobez (30 Jun 2017 3.01am)

Edited by Mstrobez (30 Jun 2017 3.13am)

We're the Arthur over ere!

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Stirlingsays 30 Jun 17 3.22am
Originally posted by Mstrobez I accept what you're saying but surely the staunchest brexiteers would argue there isn't even any need for any negotiations and we should just fall back on WTO rules and get out straight away. There's also, of course, many backing the government for a need to negotiate some kind of trade deal with the EU (thank God). But there are also undoubtedly people, which we cannot account accurately, who would've seen someone like Farage consistently bringing up the happiness in Norway and prosperity in Switzerland and were subsequently influenced by those comparisons in the way they eventually voted. You can't bring Norway and Switzerland up to suit your argument and win votes when you're demonstrably against us being even remotely like them - because that isn't making a prediction and getting it wrong, that's just straight up deceit and manipulation. Following the "brexit means brexit" rhetoric is kind of meanlingless because it's a rejection of any interpretation of the exit arrangement that differs from yours, and whether leavers like it or not there are different interpretations to what leaving would mean. Even if a "soft" brexit isn't possible or is wrong, it shouldn't be hounded out of any debate, in a result as close as this, when it is impossible to say what the entire (or even majority) of the 52% were voting for. The overall destination should be debated and scrutinised, and the public should be consulted on the terms of exit or, for the reasons given above, it's actually quite undemocratic. Edited by Mstrobez (30 Jun 2017 3.01am) Any criticisms of the leave campaign are balanced out with criticism of the remain campaign. Criticisms of the campaigns that are too loaded on one side are to my mind unbalanced as in truth neither campaign really knows what will happen. Both of them were arguing from an ideological position. As for interpretations of what the vote meant. I differ significantly from you. I believe your position is just a fall back remain position to attempt to get another referendum....or indeed ignore the original. There will be a vote upon the final terms in parliament. Polling data shows no call for another referendum...indeed it shows a desire to get on with the process. Remain parties did not do well in the general election. Claiming the leave position is undemocratic isn't realistic. I don't support attempts to interfere with the negotiating process by minority parties which can only weaken the UK position. But there are plenty of people who are quite happy to stand with the EU position rather than the UK....But be in no doubt this is very much a minority viewpoint in the UK. Personally, I see the EU as a disaster waiting to happen and by leaving we are reducing the damage. Two Italian banks have just failed and with the state of southern Europe that's just the tip of the iceberg. The magic EU 'money' tree can't go on endlessly....and once Germany starts to stutter investors will panic and it all comes down.....This isn't something I'm looking forward to but I don't see how it doesn't happen without serious reform.....And the EU doesn't willingly do reform. Perhaps in the future the UK may join a different type of union....But much water will pass under the bridge first. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Jun 17 3.22am

Originally posted by Mstrobez

You can't bring Norway and Switzerland up to suit your argument and win votes when you're demonstrably against us being even remotely like them - because that isn't making a prediction and getting it wrong, that's just straight up deceit and manipulation.

Following the "brexit means brexit" rhetoric is kind of meanlingless because it's a rejection of any interpretation of the exit arrangement that differs from yours, and whether leavers like it or not there are different interpretations to what leaving would mean. Even if a "soft" brexit isn't possible or is wrong, it shouldn't be hounded out of any debate, in a result as close as this, when it is impossible to say what the entire (or even majority) of the 52% were voting for. The overall destination should be debated and scrutinised, and the public should be consulted on the terms of exit or, for the reasons given above, it's actually quite undemocratic.

Edited by Mstrobez (30 Jun 2017 3.01am)

Any criticisms of the leave campaign are balanced out with criticism of the remain campaign. Criticisms of the campaigns that are too loaded on one side are to my mind unbalanced as in truth neither campaign really knows what will happen. Both of them were arguing from an ideological position.

As for interpretations of what the vote meant. I differ significantly from you. I believe your position is just a fall back remain position to attempt to get another referendum....or indeed ignore the original.

There will be a vote upon the final terms in parliament. Polling data shows no call for another referendum...indeed it shows a desire to get on with the process.

Remain parties did not do well in the general election. Claiming the leave position is undemocratic isn't realistic.

I don't support attempts to interfere with the negotiating process by minority parties which can only weaken the UK position. But there are plenty of people who are quite happy to stand with the EU position rather than the UK....But be in no doubt this is very much a minority viewpoint in the UK.

Personally, I see the EU as a disaster waiting to happen and by leaving we are reducing the damage. Two Italian banks have just failed and with the state of southern Europe that's just the tip of the iceberg. The magic EU 'money' tree can't go on endlessly....and once Germany starts to stutter investors will panic and it all comes down.....This isn't something I'm looking forward to but I don't see how it doesn't happen without serious reform.....And the EU doesn't willingly do reform.

Perhaps in the future the UK may join a different type of union....But much water will pass under the bridge first.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 02 Jul 17 2.04pm
I see we are taking back some control of our fishing waters. Good first step but we need to get back to pre-EU fishing limits. [Link] Edited by hedgehog50 (02 Jul 2017 2.04pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 02 Jul 17 2.04pm

I see we are taking back some control of our fishing waters. Good first step but we need to get back to pre-EU fishing limits.

[Link]

Edited by hedgehog50 (02 Jul 2017 2.04pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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legaleagle 02 Jul 17 8.18pm
Maybe we could have another cod war with Iceland to save the blessed Theresa just like Maggie was saved in 1982? Thing is,we have lost the last two competitive encounters with Iceland..the cod war and in the Euros...
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legaleagle

02 Jul 17 8.18pm

Maybe we could have another cod war with Iceland to save the blessed Theresa just like Maggie was saved in 1982?

Thing is,we have lost the last two competitive encounters with Iceland..the cod war and in the Euros...

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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Jul 17 8.27pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 It's ok. Once we are out our very own pleasant Scouse, British Yardies and Glaswegian gangs can take over again. Hoo-rah for Brexit British Yardies? Ha ha.
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Hrolf The Ganger

02 Jul 17 8.27pm

Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger

Originally posted by Kermit8

It's ok. Once we are out our very own pleasant Scouse, British Yardies and Glaswegian gangs can take over again.

Hoo-rah for Brexit

British Yardies?

Ha ha.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 02 Jul 17 8.51pm
Originally posted by legaleagle Maybe we could have another cod war with Iceland to save the blessed Theresa just like Maggie was saved in 1982? Thing is,we have lost the last two competitive encounters with Iceland..the cod war and in the Euros... It's just good to see the government doing something in the interests of Britain for a change, I know it must dismay you. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 02 Jul 17 8.51pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

Maybe we could have another cod war with Iceland to save the blessed Theresa just like Maggie was saved in 1982?

Thing is,we have lost the last two competitive encounters with Iceland..the cod war and in the Euros...

It's just good to see the government doing something in the interests of Britain for a change, I know it must dismay you.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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