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davenotamonkey Flag 05 May 16 1.35pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by JohnyBoy

Frankly it is you who are wrong. Where you are correct is that eu law has supremacy where there is cross border legal differences or a conflict in domestic laws. This is seized upon by the leave campaign that we have given over our laws to Brussels.....which is frankly far fetched, desperate, exaggerated bull#$it. The truth is 99%of the laws that we deal with day in day out - criminal, contract, conveyancing etc are unaffected by eu law .....and businesess that i have been involved in have traded quite happily with thd us, asia and japan with no need to recourse for eu permission, so thiz agsin is just the usual old scaremongering bolash from the out campaign

1. Please cite your sources for "99%"

2. The UK Supreme court is subservient to a higher court.

3. UK law is subservient to EU law.

4. Nowhere did I say that we must be granted "EU permission" to trade with "us, asia and japan"

5. What I will reiterate is that we cannot negotiate our own trade deals with them directly. We have to sit patient while the lumbering EU does it's thing on our (and 27 others) behalf. And that's exactly the problem. We don't represent ourselves, we have to delegate to a bureaucratic nightmare that is sclerotic in growth and progress. So we wait for Canada and the EU to (eventually... how many years now?) converge on Romanian visa rights. We wait for the EU to take an interest in China. We wait for Italian tomato growers to get their special deal so the EU can finally continue negotiations with Australia. We shrug our shoulders waiting for a DECADE for an agreement with India. Yeah, yeah. We can trade with them. So can Switzerland. And it does, with $US40tn worth of trade agreements. What about the EU? A huge $US7tn. 18% that of Switzerland. How? Why? Because they are agile and not held back satisfying utterly divergent interests from Estonia, Italy and Romania.

6. You don't even address my comments about budgetary control. I'll assume I'm just "frankly wrong" and take your word for it

7. None of this is "scaremongering bolash" - these are facts. The status of the above trade deals are facts. The commission oversight of national budgets is facts. Supremacy of EU law and justice is fact.

8. Try again.

 

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johnfirewall Flag 05 May 16 1.42pm Send a Private Message to johnfirewall Add johnfirewall as a friend

Even the Guardian said 'only 4/10' UK laws have a basis in EU legislation

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 05 May 16 2.00pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Even the Guardian said 'only 4/10' UK laws have a basis in EU legislation

I doubt it would make much difference if the UK left the EU, those laws would still be applicable. They'd need an act of Parliament to reverse them anyhow.

Another thing about leaving the EU, it won't mean that any EU laws are suddenly 'overturned' or that the European Court won't still serve as the final court of arbitration (it did so even before the Common Market).


 


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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 05 May 16 2.16pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

$40 trillion?

You may want to check that, monkey.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 05 May 16 2.17pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey


2. The UK Supreme court is subservient to a higher court.

Well yes, and no. Its not subservient, as the European Court serves to rule and provide advice only on conflicts in English law, not to pass UK law. Something is only referred to the European Court of Human Rights when a clear resolution cannot be found.

For example, in UK law there is a human right to vote and law regarding the revoking of voting status for prisoners (ok its more complicated). As such a case brought in such a matter cannot be resolved in law simply and essentially the ECHR provides an independent panel to rule based on the conflicting laws and provide an advisory solution (which is usually accepted by the UK Judiciary).

Originally posted by davenotamonkey
3. UK law is subservient to EU law.

Yes and no, for similar reasons. The Human Rights Act of 1998 is not an EU Law per se. It a UK law, that originates with the EU, but has some differences to other countries in the EU's Human Rights Act. The UK also has a veto option in relation to EU legislation.

Since the 1950s, the European Court has served as the final court of arbitration for UK law (In fact Churchill was a founder of the idea of the European Court and it serves to 'mitigate the power of the state and state bodies over citizens'. UK law isn't subservient at all as European Court rulings don't have to be accepted into UK law (and even then the EC typically issues a compromise, often based on similar cases from other EU members).

What it does demand, really, is typically that the UK (or other member state) passes legislation that resolves this conflict. For example, the EU didn't rule that the UK should allow all prisoners to vote. It advised that the UK should pass legislation defining the situation clearly and advised that some kind of enfranchisement right be extended to some UK Prisoners (referring the UK to examples of resolutions that occurred in other European countries that had the same issue).

Also as a final note, the UK is as represented in the European court as every other member state and each country appoints its representative. The only stipulation is that a UK judge cannot rule on issues arising from the UK.

The ECHR acts in the same manner with all member states. The Press just makes out its anti-British, which is a total fabrication.

 


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davenotamonkey Flag 05 May 16 2.27pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Yup, it's correct.

Swiss have free trade access to markets with a combined GDP of $US40tn. The equivalent value for the EU is $US7tn. You're welcome to quibble on the figures with Daniel Hannan. I suspect he knows considerably more then either of us do.

Alternatively, get hold of the WTO GDP data, FTA lists and disprove it if you wish

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 05 May 16 2.40pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Yup, it's correct.

Swiss have free trade access to markets with a combined GDP of $US40tn. The equivalent value for the EU is $US7tn. You're welcome to quibble on the figures with Daniel Hannan. I suspect he knows considerably more then either of us do.

Alternatively, get hold of the WTO GDP data, FTA lists and disprove it if you wish


You said 'agreements'. 'Access' is obviously a different kettle of poisson. Like their cheese your point is full of holes.

 


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davenotamonkey Flag 05 May 16 2.41pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Yes and no, for similar reasons. The Human Rights Act of 1998 is not an EU Law per se. It a UK law, that originates with the EU, but has some differences to other countries in the EU's Human Rights Act. The UK also has a veto option in relation to EU legislation.

Since the 1950s, the European Court has served as the final court of arbitration for UK law (In fact Churchill was a founder of the idea of the European Court and it serves to 'mitigate the power of the state and state bodies over citizens'. UK law isn't subservient at all as European Court rulings don't have to be accepted into UK law (and even then the EC typically issues a compromise, often based on similar cases from other EU members).

What it does demand, really, is typically that the UK (or other member state) passes legislation that resolves this conflict. For example, the EU didn't rule that the UK should allow all prisoners to vote. It advised that the UK should pass legislation defining the situation clearly and advised that some kind of enfranchisement right be extended to some UK Prisoners (referring the UK to examples of resolutions that occurred in other European countries that had the same issue).

Also as a final note, the UK is as represented in the European court as every other member state and each country appoints its representative. The only stipulation is that a UK judge cannot rule on issues arising from the UK.

The ECHR acts in the same manner with all member states. The Press just makes out its anti-British, which is a total fabrication.


I would urge that you read this government report, the last in the "ain't the EU wonderful" series, then ask yourself why, unlike all the others, it's publication wasn't shouted gleefully from the rooftops of Downing Street. It might also clear up your understanding in light of the above.


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davenotamonkey Flag 05 May 16 2.50pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8


You said 'agreements'. 'Access' is obviously a different kettle of poisson. Like their cheese your point is full of holes.

Sigh. I will reiterate again, for the benefit of the hard-of-understanding.

Switzerland: free trade agreements (tariff-free access) to countries with a combined GDP of $US40tn

EU: free trade agreements (tariff-free access) to countries with a combined GDP of $US7

Your disingenuous attempts at picking holes and weaseling away from the facts expose the baselessness of your argument to clear sunlight.

If you would like to dispute these figures, please do provide alternatives. Else accept that the Swiss have a considerably better, more valuable set of trade agreements than we do, stuck as we are in the only trading region not to have experienced growth in a decade.

 

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JohnyBoy Flag 05 May 16 2.53pm Send a Private Message to JohnyBoy Add JohnyBoy as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Yes and no, for similar reasons. The Human Rights Act of 1998 is not an EU Law per se. It a UK law, that originates with the EU, but has some differences to other countries in the EU's Human Rights Act. The UK also has a veto option in relation to EU legislation.

Since the 1950s, the European Court has served as the final court of arbitration for UK law (In fact Churchill was a founder of the idea of the European Court and it serves to 'mitigate the power of the state and state bodies over citizens'. UK law isn't subservient at all as European Court rulings don't have to be accepted into UK law (and even then the EC typically issues a compromise, often based on similar cases from other EU members).

What it does demand, really, is typically that the UK (or other member state) passes legislation that resolves this conflict. For example, the EU didn't rule that the UK should allow all prisoners to vote. It advised that the UK should pass legislation defining the situation clearly and advised that some kind of enfranchisement right be extended to some UK Prisoners (referring the UK to examples of resolutions that occurred in other European countries that had the same issue).

Also as a final note, the UK is as represented in the European court as every other member state and each country appoints its representative. The only stipulation is that a UK judge cannot rule on issues arising from the UK.

The ECHR acts in the same manner with all member states. The Press just makes out its anti-British, which is a total fabrication.

Thank you for posting this jamie you have saved me some time. Its a nice day and we all could be enjoying the sunshine.
My 99% Dave is based on my experience. I look at legal contracts of all kinds probably about 1 a week, usual old stuff, shareholder agreements, business articles of assoc, tenancy and rental agreements, conveyancing even insurances, mobile agreements etc etc and my experience is that we are 99% unaffected on a day to day basis, similarly for criminal, contract case law in magistrate or high courts. This is why i think its scaremongering to say that the eu has somehow foisted its laws onto us. Eu law does prevent monopolistic or unfair trading practice but this is surely good for us consumers right?
But as previously mentioned if you take the good friday agreement in NI (surely we are all thankful that one was sorted) it had the be based on eu law particularly the human rights act to be accepted by both sides....the irony it was British lawyers who wrote it or foisted it on the Eu. Voting brexit would cause issues in the legality of the good friday agreement which would have to be reworded...imagine all that sh#t all over again....not for me thanks i would prefer the last 20 years of peace to continue.

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 05 May 16 3.03pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Sigh. I will reiterate again, for the benefit of the hard-of-understanding.

Switzerland: free trade agreements (tariff-free access) to countries with a combined GDP of $US40tn

EU: free trade agreements (tariff-free access) to countries with a combined GDP of $US7

Your disingenuous attempts at picking holes and weaseling away from the facts expose the baselessness of your argument to clear sunlight.

If you would like to dispute these figures, please do provide alternatives. Else accept that the Swiss have a considerably better, more valuable set of trade agreements than we do, stuck as we are in the only trading region not to have experienced growth in a decade.

No. I get it. I just don't quite understanding why you are writing it? It's just silly. You are basically saying Switzerland can trade with the rest of world and tap into untold tens of trillions.

No they can't. They haven't got the population, industry, infrastructure, capacity to come anywhere near achieving what you are insinuating.

A very silly angle, indeed.

 


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npn Flag Crowborough 05 May 16 3.12pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by JohnyBoy

Thank you for posting this jamie you have saved me some time. Its a nice day and we all could be enjoying the sunshine.
My 99% Dave is based on my experience. I look at legal contracts of all kinds probably about 1 a week, usual old stuff, shareholder agreements, business articles of assoc, tenancy and rental agreements, conveyancing even insurances, mobile agreements etc etc and my experience is that we are 99% unaffected on a day to day basis, similarly for criminal, contract case law in magistrate or high courts. This is why i think its scaremongering to say that the eu has somehow foisted its laws onto us. Eu law does prevent monopolistic or unfair trading practice but this is surely good for us consumers right?
But as previously mentioned if you take the good friday agreement in NI (surely we are all thankful that one was sorted) it had the be based on eu law particularly the human rights act to be accepted by both sides....the irony it was British lawyers who wrote it or foisted it on the Eu. Voting brexit would cause issues in the legality of the good friday agreement which would have to be reworded...imagine all that sh#t all over again....not for me thanks i would prefer the last 20 years of peace to continue.

Would it?

Not questioning the validity of your argument, necessarily, just interested to hear why/how a pre-written agreement would need to change because of a change in the EU membership

 

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