This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Israel / Palestine
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
 matt_himself  Matataland 27 Jul 14 8.14pm |
  |
|---|---|
|
Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2014 7.32pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 4.39pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 4.32pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 3.58pm
An interesting piece on the background of current situation, written by a Jewish historian in the independent.
In flagrant violation of international law, Israel then imposed a blockade (still in force today) on the 1.8 million inhabitants of Gaza. Four months ago, Hamas reached an accord with Fatah, and another national unity government was formed, this time without a single Hamas-affiliated member but with the old agenda of negotiating an end to the conflict with Israel. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hysterically attacked it as a vote for terror, not for peace. He used the abduction of three young Jewish settlers on the West Bank as an excuse for a violent crackdown on Hamas supporters there, although Hamas had nothing to do with it. The Hamas rocket attacks were a response to this provocation. The last thing Netanyahu and his right-wing colleagues want is a united and moderate Palestinian national leadership. Undermining the unity government is one of the undeclared objectives of the current assault. Israel's spin doctors trumpeted its acceptance and Hamas's rejection of an Egyptian ceasefire proposal. Hamas, however, could not accept this proposal because it left the savage siege in place. It is difficult to resist the conclusion that Israel's real objective in unleashing this offensive is to bomb Hamas into a humiliating surrender. Israel's ultimate aim seems to be not a just peace but the reimposition of the status quo with a fragmented Palestine and with itself as an imperial overlord.
It is amazing how so many politicans are 'cunds' in your eyes and you question them regularly, yet don't question those who suit your views.
It is an interesting article. Its not fibbing in 2006, just disingenuous,"jostling for political advantage" and "spin", just like happens all over the place including in Israel, and in the UK. But it perhaps illustrates how spin can become perceived wisdom even in academic circles and how many (certainly me, and perhaps also including all of us here) tend (with no dishonourable intent) to use those facts that best suit our overall argument...or perhaps, there is no such thing as objectivity (whether in analysing "history" or current affairs) since we are all influenced by what we consider to be the most relevant facts about something that happened as opposed to the less relevant ones, which is subjective.
Of course not.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
  |
| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 14 8.14pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 8.04pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 7.25pm
Edited by nickgusset (27 Jul 2014 7.28pm)
Would you ask Jews to make peace with Nazis? It is practically the same thing with Hamas. There will be no 'peace' while Hamas have power. In fact the fact that Hamas could later on gain power makes the whole process very risky as it is. Western governments accept this and know this....It's only the 'usual suspects' who continue to make excuses for and minimize the reality so that they can paint easy black and white scenarios.
You keep pointing to Hamas being the issue. they are of course, but the bigger issue is this... Netanyahu doesn't want Palestine to be a sovereign state, end of. Even if Fatah were in power and Hamas didn't exist. They didn't want a free Palestine when Arafat was about, they won't ever change their mind. But that still does not give them the right to control their borders, restrict goods in/out or treat them as second class citizens. That's why we need outside intervention. But that isn't happening.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 14 8.14pm |
 |
|---|---|
|
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 8.12pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 5.22pm
Is Hebron just outside Mumbai airport? Just wondering as you imply you have been there?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 14 8.16pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 8.12pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 5.22pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 3.42pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 3.06pm
We all know people who aren't anti semitic but are against Israel's actions in different regards. That's perfectly valid. However some of us also know of people for whom the anti semitic brush is rightly applied or suspected. Spot on. And on the opposite, it appears that if you support Israel's right to defend itself, you are worse than Hitler. And the Nazi analogies are then forthcoming, which is very different from the truth. I find it interesting that most people on here with an opinion have never seen Hebron with their own eyes, let alone explore it and understand its complicated history.
Just wondering as you imply you have been there?
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 14 8.18pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.16pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 8.12pm
Quote pefwin at 27 Jul 2014 5.22pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 3.42pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 3.06pm
We all know people who aren't anti semitic but are against Israel's actions in different regards. That's perfectly valid. However some of us also know of people for whom the anti semitic brush is rightly applied or suspected. Spot on. And on the opposite, it appears that if you support Israel's right to defend itself, you are worse than Hitler. And the Nazi analogies are then forthcoming, which is very different from the truth. I find it interesting that most people on here with an opinion have never seen Hebron with their own eyes, let alone explore it and understand its complicated history.
Just wondering as you imply you have been there?
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 14 8.19pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.14pm
You keep pointing to Hamas being the issue. they are of course, but the bigger issue is this... Netanyahu doesn't want Palestine to be a sovereign state, end of. Even if Fatah were in power and Hamas didn't exist. They didn't want a free Palestine when Arafat was about, they won't ever change their mind. But that still does not give them the right to control their borders, restrict goods in/out or treat them as second class citizens. That's why we need outside intervention. But that isn't happening.
Against action in Syria. But you think outside intervention should be taken on Israel? Yes, Netanyahu doesn't want a two state solution....But he isn't the democracy called Israel. A two state solution is very risky for Israel.....The more you actually think about it instead of just glibly saying it the less sensible the reality for Israel. Camp David got close but none of the extremists on both sides would accept it. You need to understand that a two state solution means war for both sides against their own....Like the Irish war after NI was set up......And these wars wouldn't be easy. How do you think the outside intervention would go there? As long as they are killing the ones you don't like eh. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2014 8.41pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 14 8.23pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 8.19pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.14pm
You keep pointing to Hamas being the issue. they are of course, but the bigger issue is this... Netanyahu doesn't want Palestine to be a sovereign state, end of. Even if Fatah were in power and Hamas didn't exist. They didn't want a free Palestine when Arafat was about, they won't ever change their mind. But that still does not give them the right to control their borders, restrict goods in/out or treat them as second class citizens. That's why we need outside intervention. But that isn't happening.
Against action in Syria. But you think outside intervention should be taken on Israel? Yes, Netanyahu doesn't want a two state solution....But he isn't the democracy called Israel. A two state solution is very risky for Israel.....The more you actually think about it instead of just glibly saying it the less sensible the reality for Israel. Camp David got close but none of the extremists on both sides would accept it. How do you think the outside intervention would go there? As long as they are killing the ones you don't like eh.
I find it amazing that people can shout so loud without any real alternative view on what should happen other than not what is going on right now.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 14 8.24pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2014 8.19pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.14pm
You keep pointing to Hamas being the issue. they are of course, but the bigger issue is this... Netanyahu doesn't want Palestine to be a sovereign state, end of. Even if Fatah were in power and Hamas didn't exist. They didn't want a free Palestine when Arafat was about, they won't ever change their mind. But that still does not give them the right to control their borders, restrict goods in/out or treat them as second class citizens. That's why we need outside intervention. But that isn't happening.
Against action in Syria. But you think outside intervention should be taken on Israel? Yes, Netanyahu doesn't want a two state solution....But he isn't the democracy called Israel. A two state solution is very risky for Israel.....The more you actually think about it instead of just glibly saying it the less sensible the reality for Israel. Camp David got close but none of the extremists on both sides would accept it. How do you think the outside intervention would go there? As long as they are killing the ones you don't like eh. Not in response but... In response. As long as they're killing the ones you don't like? Stirling I expect better from you. I'd go for sanctions against Israel rather than military at first. I was against the second invasion of Iraq.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 14 8.34pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 8.23pm
I find it amazing that people can shout so loud without any real alternative view on what should happen other than not what is going on right now.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 14 8.36pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.24pm
In response. As long as they're killing the ones you don't like? Stirling I expect better from you. I'd go for sanctions against Israel rather than military at first. I was against the second invasion of Iraq. 'at first'......Hahahaha....Blimey. What I support is the right for Israel to kill Hamas.....Outside of that I don't support any military action.....My position is actually the one that most western governments take....What you're calling for would never happen....Just boycott your fruit mate. As for, 'killing the ones you don't like' I'm not the one calling for intervention so your counter point makes no real sense.......Are you suggesting that Israel can't defend itself against Hamas then? I called for military support for moderates in Syria when they were there.....Not after the long long delays that the navel gazing refuseniks made happen....The left and their allies ensured that no support happened meaning that the moderates melted away or were beaten by ISIS. Yeah well done over that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 14 8.38pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.34pm
So you think the indiscriminate bombing of hospitals, schools and civilians is the way forward. You think the death of over 1000 innocents is the way forward? How do you know the breakdown of 'innocents'? How does anyone......The usual over wrought Nick post.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| matt_himself Matataland 27 Jul 14 8.38pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2014 8.34pm
Quote matt_himself at 27 Jul 2014 8.23pm
I find it amazing that people can shout so loud without any real alternative view on what should happen other than not what is going on right now.
I have never said that or supported that, Nick, it is f***ing lazy to say it and highlights the lack of depth in your views. Just keep saying 'no' to everything, we know you are a born contrarian, and keep fooling yourself that that means something.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / RegisterNew users
Registration is now on our new message board
Existing users
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
Sponsors
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.