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europalace Europe 19 Jun 17 1.21pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The country voted to leave the EU. Talks to leave the EU should be conducted by leavers. David Davies voted leave, Keir Starmer is a remainer who would be a disaster. What about the other 48% of the British population? I think you going to be sorely disappointed. The u-turns will be many and the compromises regular. The EU has a massive upper hand going into these negotiations with a very weak UK government. The only thing that will change the weak government will be another general election, which again will instill fear in investors and yet again play right into the hands of the EU. It's a lose-lose situation for the UK unfortunately and feel very sorry for the many friends of mine still there.
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Stirlingsays 19 Jun 17 1.41pm | |
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Originally posted by europalace
What about the other 48% of the British population? I think you going to be sorely disappointed. The u-turns will be many and the compromises regular. The EU has a massive upper hand going into these negotiations with a very weak UK government. The only thing that will change the weak government will be another general election, which again will instill fear in investors and yet again play right into the hands of the EU. It's a lose-lose situation for the UK unfortunately and feel very sorry for the many friends of mine still there. I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. On a separate but related point weren't you were arguing against democracy in a previou0s post...oh sorry yes...apparently you like democracy but don't like referendums. So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8 Hevon 19 Jun 17 1.43pm | |
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already posted but relevant here also.. Survation latest poll (they predicted Hung P) Con 39%, Lab 45%, Lib Dems 7%, UKIP 3%, Others 6%
Big chest and massive boobs |
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europalace Europe 19 Jun 17 1.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. On a separate but related point weren't you were arguing against democracy in a previou0s post...oh sorry yes...apparently you like democracy but don't like referendums. So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate.
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Kermit8 Hevon 19 Jun 17 1.49pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. On a separate but related point weren't you were arguing against democracy in a previou0s post...oh sorry yes...apparently you like democracy but don't like referendums. So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate. If the 55%/45% minimum requirement threshold for major change had been implemented years ago for referendums and if Leave had still won I reckon everything would be going a helluvalot smoother now. The proposition that the nation has spoken would have much stronger foundations. It's frankly ridiculous that one side could win or lose by one vote around a 50/50 split.
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Stirlingsays 19 Jun 17 1.54pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
If the 55%/45% minimum requirement threshold for major change had been implemented years ago for referendums and if Leave had still won I reckon everything would be going a helluvalot smoother now. The proposition that the nation has spoken would have much stronger foundations. It's frankly ridiculous that one side could win or lose by one vote around a 50/50 split. So would you agree with that same mentality for changing government in elections as that's also a major change?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 19 Jun 17 1.56pm | |
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Originally posted by europalace
That wasn't you? I can't be bothered to spend ten minutes looking it up....If you say it wasn't you in that discussion then I'll accept that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jun 17 1.57pm | |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Stability for what? Stable wage stagnation? Stable unsafe social housing? Stable dismantling of the NHS? Stable weekly terror attacks? Stable infighting within the cabinet? The Tories claimed they were the stable option and the electorate evidently decided they weren't. Within a week, the electorate have been vindicated. We are now, primarily because of the Tories' hubris, entering the most unstable period of British history in most of our lifetimes. Things are now so unstable, that a socialist looks set to enter number 10 on a landslide, something even I thought I would never see happen in this country. Codswallop. Wage stagnation is largely due to immigration. You can mostly blame Mr Blair for that. Terror attacks? Mr Blair can take a fair chunk of blame for the environment we are now in. It is funny that you blame the Tories for the actions of Islamists. Very funny. There is no dismantling of the NHS. That is age old lefty spin. There is only a recognition that it can't continue as it is. Mr Blair did plenty to damage the NHS. And Cabinet infighting? At least the Tories broadly support that own leader. Had Corbyn not polled better than expected he would have been publicly vilified by most of his party by now.
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serial thriller The Promised Land 19 Jun 17 2.07pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Codswallop. Wage stagnation is largely due to immigration. You can mostly blame Mr Blair for that. Terror attacks? Mr Blair can take a fair chunk of blame for the environment we are now in. It is funny that you blame the Tories for the actions of Islamists. Very funny. There is no dismantling of the NHS. That is age old lefty spin. There is only a recognition that it can't continue as it is. Mr Blair did plenty to damage the NHS. And Cabinet infighting? At least the Tories broadly support that own leader. Had Corbyn not polled better than expected he would have been publicly vilified by most of his party by now. I'm honestly not going to bother with most of your post as you are now, for the first time in a while, clearly on the fringe side of public opinion. But it is very interesting that, on the day where a Fascist has mowed down innocent Muslims, you continue to conflate terrorism with Islam.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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hedgehog50 Croydon 19 Jun 17 2.30pm | |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
I'm honestly not going to bother with most of your post as you are now, for the first time in a while, clearly on the fringe side of public opinion. But it is very interesting that, on the day where a Fascist has mowed down innocent Muslims, you continue to conflate terrorism with Islam. Surely Manchester and London Bridge were Fascist acts too.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jun 17 3.33pm | |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
I'm honestly not going to bother with most of your post as you are now, for the first time in a while, clearly on the fringe side of public opinion. So you think that most people, including you it appears, blame the Tories for Islamist terrorism but I'm the one doing the conflating? BTW, the Tories have a 50 plus seat majority, just in case you had forgotten.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Jun 17 4.20pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I have some sympathy for the 'what about the 48% of the British population' argument. Still, I don't think you can conduct a negotiation using proportional representation. Business isn't done that way. Clearly you never had the misfortune of working as part of a consortium. Oddly this is how a lot of government and defence business is conducted. I've worked with as many as five different businesses as 'partners' to a single client body. I wouldn't recommend it. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
We are a 'first past the post' society so I don't see any sensible argument for remainers to reflect policy when they lost. Whilst I agree, that the ultimately we must have an exit from the EU - I wouldn't say we're a first past the post system per se. We elect to the European Parliament on proportional representation, have a constitutional system in which the narrow divide of this referendum wouldn't have been sufficient to return a majority. I don't think we necessarily have to have MPs who voted for an exit, because we'd be stuffed (given hardly any of the Conservatives, Liberals or Labour MPs were pro-exit). I don't think you could have MPs who stood in the general election as being for a second referendum or reversal of an exit mind. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
So we shouldn't really have joined the common market in the first place....and if we had a government who doesn't agree with the EU we should just leave...and then join back when a EU supporting government comes in....Are you seeing the problem with legitimacy here? Unless you ask the people a direct question you any government can claim a mandate. Yes, we should have joined the Common Market, because people voted for that, and I think ultimately a bit of membership to a greater body makes sense, and can serve to keep things 'honest'. However we never voted for a European Parliament or the encroachment of a EU over a trade body. I think the problem for the Conservatives is that they don't have a democratic mandate to pursue their proposed exit. They can only form a government with the assistance of a NI Nationalist Party, who's interests in supporting the Conservative are purely regional. They didn't get a mandate for a 'hard brexit' from the UK, only a majority at election that wasn't sufficient to return a government, let alone an endorsement of a policy. Particularly given that the Conservatives effectively called the election to establish that mandate.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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