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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 18 Jun 17 10.19pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Nick, kermit, Steeleye, why do you think Attlee, Benn, Foot, Scargill and in reality, Corbyn, were/are so against being in the EU?

Protectionism.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 18 Jun 17 10.23pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Nick, kermit, Steeleye, why do you think Attlee, Benn, Foot, Scargill and in reality, Corbyn, were/are so against being in the EU?

You're not moving the subject forward. Leave won. Nearly a year ago. What's the plan?

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 18 Jun 17 10.33pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Did you forget to log out, and back into another of your sockpuppet accounts? Or is there a reason you're discussing yourself with... yourself?

Has Brexit all got a bit too much for you?

Knew it.

Box of frogs anyone?

 

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davenotamonkey Flag 18 Jun 17 10.43pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

The concept of a referendum only works where the playing field is level.

In this case people with little to lose voted in one direction and people with loads to lose the other. This was not a suitable issue for a referendum and I don't consider it a 'pure' aspect of democracy. In addition our version of democracy is intended to be representative democracy not direct democracy. The rationale for that is that it's very hard for the whole country to be properly briefed in an unbiased way when voting on crucial issues.

Why should there be a level playing field? The Swiss initiate a referendum by popular initiative. You are mired in the mindset of "winning and losing". It's really rather odd. We're just taking a different path. I speak to many of the less-frothy Europeans about this, and about Brexit, and they are surprised at the animus between the two Brexit sides. You're still pitching it as a battle, rather than simply a different path that has been democratically mandated we now follow.

Going back to the Swiss, there are certainly limitations - so people cannot genuinely lose -- not social media lose: "oh my God, I've lost the right to 'love, live and learn' in Europe - oh noes!", but in terms of fundamental rights. As to your suggestion that voters are (essentially) too stupid to vote in referenda, due to the biased nature of information they receive... could you please explain how that is different to the information they receive voting in a General Election?

If leaving the EU "isn't a suitable issue for a referendum", then how else is it decided? Do you not see GE as incredibly blunt tools? Am I allowed to say that 80%+ of the population are now Brexiteers, because they voted for parties in the GE committed to us leaving the EU? Why do we need a change of govt each and every time we need to decide on something of national importance? Isn't that chucking the baby out with the bathwater?

I genuinely don't understand the resistance to direct democracy. MPs need to be executors of our kratos, not "acting according to either their interests of those of their lobbyists". The people are sovereign, and the government governs by consent of the people.

You say our democracy is "intended to be representative" - ordained by who? Was there some unwritten rulebook somewhere? Why does it have to be that way? Why would it be so impossible to introduce a "referendum by popular initiative" on issues that "we, the people" deem important, but not parliament? Have you ever seen the online petitions ever receive anything more than a contemptuous waving of papers from the Green benches, when they reach the threshold? The only other avenue is lobbying your MP for a private members bill, which is similarly treated to a contemptuous waving of papers from the benches. To hell with that, frankly.

I suggest you look at the type of initiatives the Swiss vote on. Some of them are mundane, some of them are very important. But the critical point is that their voice is undiluted by treacherous representatives who do not reflect their views. For the most part, it's not about "winners and losers" (I get it - politics here is now as entrenched as football in terms of loyalties, thus "winning" and "losing", it's about choosing the path for your country. I trust the electorate more than I do the career politicians who claim to represent us.... and if we screw up once in a while -- well, laws can be repealed, changed and amended. The Swiss don't seem to be falling apart because of it.

actual_democracy.jpg Attachment: actual_democracy.jpg (237.24Kb)

 

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Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 18 Jun 17 10.44pm Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Knew it.

Box of frogs anyone?

F*cking classic.

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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davenotamonkey Flag 18 Jun 17 10.46pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Knew it.

Box of frogs anyone?

I hope that's not a Kermit reference...

kermit7point5.png Attachment: kermit7point5.png (114.35Kb)

 

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Mapletree Flag Croydon 18 Jun 17 11.07pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Why should there be a level playing field? The Swiss initiate a referendum by popular initiative. You are mired in the mindset of "winning and losing". It's really rather odd. We're just taking a different path. I speak to many of the less-frothy Europeans about this, and about Brexit, and they are surprised at the animus between the two Brexit sides. You're still pitching it as a battle, rather than simply a different path that has been democratically mandated we now follow.

Going back to the Swiss, there are certainly limitations - so people cannot genuinely lose -- not social media lose: "oh my God, I've lost the right to 'love, live and learn' in Europe - oh noes!", but in terms of fundamental rights. As to your suggestion that voters are (essentially) too stupid to vote in referenda, due to the biased nature of information they receive... could you please explain how that is different to the information they receive voting in a General Election?

If leaving the EU "isn't a suitable issue for a referendum", then how else is it decided? Do you not see GE as incredibly blunt tools? Am I allowed to say that 80%+ of the population are now Brexiteers, because they voted for parties in the GE committed to us leaving the EU? Why do we need a change of govt each and every time we need to decide on something of national importance? Isn't that chucking the baby out with the bathwater?

I genuinely don't understand the resistance to direct democracy. MPs need to be executors of our kratos, not "acting according to either their interests of those of their lobbyists". The people are sovereign, and the government governs by consent of the people.

You say our democracy is "intended to be representative" - ordained by who? Was there some unwritten rulebook somewhere? Why does it have to be that way? Why would it be so impossible to introduce a "referendum by popular initiative" on issues that "we, the people" deem important, but not parliament? Have you ever seen the online petitions ever receive anything more than a contemptuous waving of papers from the Green benches, when they reach the threshold? The only other avenue is lobbying your MP for a private members bill, which is similarly treated to a contemptuous waving of papers from the benches. To hell with that, frankly.

I suggest you look at the type of initiatives the Swiss vote on. Some of them are mundane, some of them are very important. But the critical point is that their voice is undiluted by treacherous representatives who do not reflect their views. For the most part, it's not about "winners and losers" (I get it - politics here is now as entrenched as football in terms of loyalties, thus "winning" and "losing", it's about choosing the path for your country. I trust the electorate more than I do the career politicians who claim to represent us.... and if we screw up once in a while -- well, laws can be repealed, changed and amended. The Swiss don't seem to be falling apart because of it.

The vote was binary. It was not subject to nuance. We are leaving the EU and many people, like I have already, will lose their jobs. But many people will feel they have greater control. You have not responded to the point that the effects are unbalanced and so one vote per person does not reflect the consequences of the decision.

 

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Nevada Eagle Flag Carson City, Nevada 19 Jun 17 5.17am Send a Private Message to Nevada Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Nevada Eagle as a friend

Pretty simple. Get out.

 


Sing up ya bums

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europalace Flag Europe 19 Jun 17 5.40am Send a Private Message to europalace Add europalace as a friend

Originally posted by Nevada Eagle

Pretty simple. Get out.

er, no, it's not as simple as that. If you're from the US then you might view it as simple because you're not part of the EU. The British will only start to understand the impact of leaving starting this week and fully unfolding over the next 22 months as negotiations start and proceed over that period of time. At the end of that period, the actual deal on the plate that was voted for will be known, not any sooner than that.

 

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.TUX. Flag 19 Jun 17 6.24am

The EU is a busted flush.
The only thing keeping 'the project' alive is the constant printing of billions upon billions (from thin-air) by the ECB and this reliance on debt should tell everyone they need to know.
I've no doubt that it'll be a bit painful for a while but ultimately we're far better out than in.

 


Buy Litecoin.

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europalace Flag Europe 19 Jun 17 7.08am Send a Private Message to europalace Add europalace as a friend

Originally posted by .TUX.

The EU is a busted flush.
The only thing keeping 'the project' alive is the constant printing of billions upon billions (from thin-air) by the ECB and this reliance on debt should tell everyone they need to know.
I've no doubt that it'll be a bit painful for a while but ultimately we're far better out than in.

The reason the ECB is using QE is to keep the Euro from appreciating even more as that would hurt exports from the Eurozone. The reason the Euro has remained strong is because of huge inward investment by external business. This is the exact opposite to what has happened in the UK since last year where inward investment has virtually dried up on a relative scale. That's why GBP has plummeted - no one wants to invest in an economy that is unsure of where it's going since voting to leave the EU. So, with regards to the EU being a busted flush, that's only what people like yourself actually wish. In reality looking at economies and currencies the reality is that the UK is currently on that road to being a 'busted flush' as you put it.

Regarding the UK being 'better out than in', how can you come to that conclusion when negotiations with the EU haven't even started yet? You will only be able to judge the impact of leaving when those negotiations have concluded, not anytime before that.

Edited by europalace (19 Jun 2017 7.11am)

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 19 Jun 17 8.19am

Originally posted by nickgusset

You're not moving the subject forward. Leave won. Nearly a year ago. What's the plan?

Leave as quickly as possible, any deals should not involve free movement of people, parliamentary sovereignty must be assured as should British courts' jurisdiction.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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