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SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 18 May 14 10.30pm
Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 10.29pm Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 9.15pm Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 8.33pm Quote legaleagle at 18 May 2014 7.57pm Quote Stirlingsays at 18 May 2014 1.37pm Quote legaleagle at 18 May 2014 12.09pm Being "anti-EU" has come to encapsulate a code for being disatisfied with life and seeking a convenient "other" to blame it on....Hence, UKIP's mass appeal....as a protest vote. Maybe its the EU's fault our taxi drivers don't wear uniforms as per UKIP's manifesto at the last elections?! Blaming all woes on the EU very neatly incorporates many of the "others" people have sought to blame their/"our" woes on over the past few decades: economic decline post empire, loss of Empire, immigration, multi-culturalism. The EU is very far from perfect (what is?) but, I suspect we need it more than vice versa and if people think leaving would lead to anything other than economic disaster, I fear they are living in dreamland...The figures recently published about how many from Romania and Bulgaria actually chose to come here post 1 January 2014 says it all about the gap between reality and the culture of blaming/fear of the outsider "other" we inhabit. Go to former Yugoslavia, for example, and you get a stark view of the very real benefits to all (including us) of the EU existing. Will be interesting to see re next year's general election, if UKIP can sustain their place as a receptacle of the general protest vote...ie all we need for everything in the UK to be hunky dory is no more immigrants and get out of the EU. This post incorporates not only a caricature of your perception of a Ukip voter and their motivations but for good measure you produce the rather obvious statement that poor countries that get a standard of living boost tend to like the EU. Errr....Wow, how surprising. There are only three net contributors to the EU of which we are one....I'm not bleeding surprised poor countries are chuffed. Your caricature of a Ukip voter is simplistic and certainly doesn't speak for me. I most certainly don't blame the EU for everything but they do share blame for the financial crises (creation of a system that couldn't live with a financial shock).....But on that score they are just typical of politicians everywhere. The overreach and mistakes the EU makes are really another thread so I won't list them here. Officially Ukip spoke of projected figures that were possible and still are...The legal agreement Labour signed means any EU citizen can live here (I oppose this...There should be a cap)..The fact that you have gone with....once again with caricaturing what they meant actually shows your willingness to replace reality with half truths. When I referred to former Yugoslavia, I was actually getting at the benefits of the rule of law and the reduction of nationalism...Its quite a good thing there have been no major wars in W Europe for 70 years or so, isn't it?There, many see EU "restrictions" and "diktats" as something positive, ie health and safety protections, data protection laws,judicial reforms, and at least some banking regulation.Sorry if that interfers too much with the stereotype of "Johnny Foreigner" only seeking monetary gain as soon as we are not looking... When we speak of "net contributors", lets not overlook the massive contribution to our economy of tariff free access within the EU area. Plus having a bit more clout in world affairs as a part of the EU (ie in trade negotiations with the USA) than alone... Our financial crisis was in large part due to Maggie and co's deregulation of the financial sector in the 1980's..as a result, and because of having the City as a major world financial centre, we'd have been exposed regardless of the EU...so another example of something blamed on the EU.. Why is immigration seen as such an explanatory factor for all our woes (and consistently has been in some quarters for 100 years)?Shall we call for the repatriation of all the hundreds of thousands of Brits happily now living in EU countries, or is that different because, to paraphrase Mr Farage, they like Germans are ok neighbours whereas Romanians are not... I accept it may well be you are not the archetypal UKIP voter I admittedly caricatured. Leaving aside the massive Bulkan Wars for now, just because there have been no major wars in the rest of Europe, why is that necessarily because of the existence of the EU? Because that was the primary reason behind the creation of the EU...to tie the French and German economies together so that war would be much less likely because of the inter-dependence it would establish. And to that end it has been an enormous success. __________________________________________ If it was "the primary reason" for the EU, why did it just not stop at a France/Germany 'project', I'm sure they would have got along together famously. As the threat of a future war after World War II was with Russia, why didn't we ask Russia to join the EU? In fact why don't we ask all the countries in the entire world to join the EU as apparently it guarantees everlasting peace? I refer you to the reply I made a few moments before. Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)
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SloveniaDave

Tirana, Albania 18 May 14 10.30pm

Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 10.29pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 9.15pm

Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 8.33pm

Quote legaleagle at 18 May 2014 7.57pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 18 May 2014 1.37pm

Quote legaleagle at 18 May 2014 12.09pm

Being "anti-EU" has come to encapsulate a code for being disatisfied with life and seeking a convenient "other" to blame it on....Hence, UKIP's mass appeal....as a protest vote.

Maybe its the EU's fault our taxi drivers don't wear uniforms as per UKIP's manifesto at the last elections?!

Blaming all woes on the EU very neatly incorporates many of the "others" people have sought to blame their/"our" woes on over the past few decades: economic decline post empire, loss of Empire, immigration, multi-culturalism.

The EU is very far from perfect (what is?) but, I suspect we need it more than vice versa and if people think leaving would lead to anything other than economic disaster, I fear they are living in dreamland...The figures recently published about how many from Romania and Bulgaria actually chose to come here post 1 January 2014 says it all about the gap between reality and the culture of blaming/fear of the outsider "other" we inhabit.

Go to former Yugoslavia, for example, and you get a stark view of the very real benefits to all (including us) of the EU existing.

Will be interesting to see re next year's general election, if UKIP can sustain their place as a receptacle of the general protest vote...ie all we need for everything in the UK to be hunky dory is no more immigrants and get out of the EU.

This post incorporates not only a caricature of your perception of a Ukip voter and their motivations but for good measure you produce the rather obvious statement that poor countries that get a standard of living boost tend to like the EU.

Errr....Wow, how surprising.

There are only three net contributors to the EU of which we are one....I'm not bleeding surprised poor countries are chuffed.

Your caricature of a Ukip voter is simplistic and certainly doesn't speak for me. I most certainly don't blame the EU for everything but they do share blame for the financial crises (creation of a system that couldn't live with a financial shock).....But on that score they are just typical of politicians everywhere.

The overreach and mistakes the EU makes are really another thread so I won't list them here.

Officially Ukip spoke of projected figures that were possible and still are...The legal agreement Labour signed means any EU citizen can live here (I oppose this...There should be a cap)..The fact that you have gone with....once again with caricaturing what they meant actually shows your willingness to replace reality with half truths.

When I referred to former Yugoslavia, I was actually getting at the benefits of the rule of law and the reduction of nationalism...Its quite a good thing there have been no major wars in W Europe for 70 years or so, isn't it?There, many see EU "restrictions" and "diktats" as something positive, ie health and safety protections, data protection laws,judicial reforms, and at least some banking regulation.Sorry if that interfers too much with the stereotype of "Johnny Foreigner" only seeking monetary gain as soon as we are not looking...

When we speak of "net contributors", lets not overlook the massive contribution to our economy of tariff free access within the EU area. Plus having a bit more clout in world affairs as a part of the EU (ie in trade negotiations with the USA) than alone...

Our financial crisis was in large part due to Maggie and co's deregulation of the financial sector in the 1980's..as a result, and because of having the City as a major world financial centre, we'd have been exposed regardless of the EU...so another example of something blamed on the EU..

Why is immigration seen as such an explanatory factor for all our woes (and consistently has been in some quarters for 100 years)?Shall we call for the repatriation of all the hundreds of thousands of Brits happily now living in EU countries, or is that different because, to paraphrase Mr Farage, they like Germans are ok neighbours whereas Romanians are not...

I accept it may well be you are not the archetypal UKIP voter I admittedly caricatured.

Leaving aside the massive Bulkan Wars for now, just because there have been no major wars in the rest of Europe, why is that necessarily because of the existence of the EU?

Because that was the primary reason behind the creation of the EU...to tie the French and German economies together so that war would be much less likely because of the inter-dependence it would establish. And to that end it has been an enormous success.

__________________________________________

If it was "the primary reason" for the EU, why did it just not stop at a France/Germany 'project', I'm sure they would have got along together famously. As the threat of a future war after World War II was with Russia, why didn't we ask Russia to join the EU? In fact why don't we ask all the countries in the entire world to join the EU as apparently it guarantees everlasting peace?

I refer you to the reply I made a few moments before.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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kangel 18 May 14 10.33pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 10.25pm Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 9.53pm Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 9.45pm Kangel, you appear to parade your ignorance as a badge of honour. If you won't listen to others, at least go away and learn some history and basic economics so that you can form a coherent argument of your own. You quoted Enoch Powell previously and, even if we don't all agree with much of what he said, he was, undoubtedly, a man of integrity, intelligence and intellectual rigour. He was very pro-Empire in his younger days but came to see that it was not sustainable after the 2nd World War and he supported much closer links with our European neighbours as the best economic future for the UK. His argument against the ECC was about the subservient relationship between Brussels and the member states and that is still where the debate lies. We are a part of Europe, always will be, and they will have to be our major trading partners. The question is how do we achieve the balance between economic cooperation and political integrity. Is that your answer to did we trade before 1975? Yes. I am not paid to be your teacher. I have already suggested some background reading for you, but, in hindsight, it was probably a bit advanced. Can I recommend the Ladybird Book of British History and a very good read called 'Janet and John's Guide to the Principles of Economics and Trade'. Happy reading Aren't you a 'moderator' of this forum? Shouldn't you be banning yourself for trolling?
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kangel

18 May 14 10.33pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 10.25pm

Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 9.53pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 9.45pm

Kangel, you appear to parade your ignorance as a badge of honour.

If you won't listen to others, at least go away and learn some history and basic economics so that you can form a coherent argument of your own.

You quoted Enoch Powell previously and, even if we don't all agree with much of what he said, he was, undoubtedly, a man of integrity, intelligence and intellectual rigour.

He was very pro-Empire in his younger days but came to see that it was not sustainable after the 2nd World War and he supported much closer links with our European neighbours as the best economic future for the UK.

His argument against the ECC was about the subservient relationship between Brussels and the member states and that is still where the debate lies. We are a part of Europe, always will be, and they will have to be our major trading partners. The question is how do we achieve the balance between economic cooperation and political integrity.

Is that your answer to did we trade before 1975?

Yes. I am not paid to be your teacher.

I have already suggested some background reading for you, but, in hindsight, it was probably a bit advanced.

Can I recommend the Ladybird Book of British History and a very good read called 'Janet and John's Guide to the Principles of Economics and Trade'.

Happy reading

Aren't you a 'moderator' of this forum? Shouldn't you be banning yourself for trolling?

Alert a moderator to this post

SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 18 May 14 10.34pm
Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 10.33pm Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 10.25pm Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 9.53pm Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 9.45pm Kangel, you appear to parade your ignorance as a badge of honour. If you won't listen to others, at least go away and learn some history and basic economics so that you can form a coherent argument of your own. You quoted Enoch Powell previously and, even if we don't all agree with much of what he said, he was, undoubtedly, a man of integrity, intelligence and intellectual rigour. He was very pro-Empire in his younger days but came to see that it was not sustainable after the 2nd World War and he supported much closer links with our European neighbours as the best economic future for the UK. His argument against the ECC was about the subservient relationship between Brussels and the member states and that is still where the debate lies. We are a part of Europe, always will be, and they will have to be our major trading partners. The question is how do we achieve the balance between economic cooperation and political integrity. Is that your answer to did we trade before 1975? Yes. I am not paid to be your teacher. I have already suggested some background reading for you, but, in hindsight, it was probably a bit advanced. Can I recommend the Ladybird Book of British History and a very good read called 'Janet and John's Guide to the Principles of Economics and Trade'. Happy reading Aren't you a 'moderator' of this forum? Shouldn't you be banning yourself for trolling? Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)
Alert a moderator to this post

SloveniaDave

Tirana, Albania 18 May 14 10.34pm

Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 10.33pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 10.25pm

Quote kangel at 18 May 2014 9.53pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 18 May 2014 9.45pm

Kangel, you appear to parade your ignorance as a badge of honour.

If you won't listen to others, at least go away and learn some history and basic economics so that you can form a coherent argument of your own.

You quoted Enoch Powell previously and, even if we don't all agree with much of what he said, he was, undoubtedly, a man of integrity, intelligence and intellectual rigour.

Is that your answer to did we trade before 1975?

Yes. I am not paid to be your teacher.

I have already suggested some background reading for you, but, in hindsight, it was probably a bit advanced.

Can I recommend the Ladybird Book of British History and a very good read called 'Janet and John's Guide to the Principles of Economics and Trade'.

Happy reading

Aren't you a 'moderator' of this forum? Shouldn't you be banning yourself for trolling?

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

Alert a moderator to this post

Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 18 May 14 11.29pm
[Link] This is how you do it. Sensible people... Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 18 May 14 11.29pm

[Link]

This is how you do it. Sensible people...

Pro USA & Israel

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legaleagle 19 May 14 12.19am
Quote nickgusset at 29 Apr 2014 10.33pm We need another argument type thread. Edited by nickgusset (29 Apr 2014 10.42pm) Well, the OP certainly succeeded in his intention...60 plus pages and no one could say the thread lacks "argument"!
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legaleagle

19 May 14 12.19am

Quote nickgusset at 29 Apr 2014 10.33pm

We need another argument type thread.
Edited by nickgusset (29 Apr 2014 10.42pm)

Well, the OP certainly succeeded in his intention...60 plus pages and no one could say the thread lacks "argument"!

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 May 14 12.23am
Quote legaleagle at 19 May 2014 12.19am Quote nickgusset at 29 Apr 2014 10.33pm We need another argument type thread. Edited by nickgusset (29 Apr 2014 10.42pm) Well, the OP certainly succeeded in his intention...60 plus pages and no one could say the thread lacks "argument"! I like to throw in a grenade from time to time...
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 May 14 12.23am

Quote legaleagle at 19 May 2014 12.19am

Quote nickgusset at 29 Apr 2014 10.33pm

We need another argument type thread.
Edited by nickgusset (29 Apr 2014 10.42pm)

Well, the OP certainly succeeded in his intention...60 plus pages and no one could say the thread lacks "argument"!

I like to throw in a grenade from time to time...

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Seth On a pale blue dot 19 May 14 1.49am
I assume you lot have seen this? [Link] "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 19 May 14 1.49am

I assume you lot have seen this? [Link]

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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luckybuck 19 May 14 2.19am
Quote Seth at 19 May 2014 1.49am I assume you lot have seen this? [Link] I'll raise you this: My rivals should be hanged for treason, says Ukip candidate [Link] But don't worry, it's 'just a few bad apples'.
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luckybuck

19 May 14 2.19am

Quote Seth at 19 May 2014 1.49am

I assume you lot have seen this? [Link]

I'll raise you this:

My rivals should be hanged for treason, says Ukip candidate
[Link]

But don't worry, it's 'just a few bad apples'.

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kangel 19 May 14 8.05am
Surely she is umpiring a cricket match,or perhaps commenting on her colleague's anatomy?
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kangel

19 May 14 8.05am

Surely she is umpiring a cricket match,or perhaps commenting on her colleague's anatomy?

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kangel 19 May 14 8.24am
Quote luckybuck at 19 May 2014 2.19am Quote Seth at 19 May 2014 1.49am I assume you lot have seen this? [Link] I'll raise you this: My rivals should be hanged for treason, says Ukip candidate [Link] But don't worry, it's 'just a few bad apples'. Can't wait - public scaffold in Trafalgar Square with toothless hags knitting purple and yellow 'Liberty Caps' while the European Court of Bizarre 'Judgements' looks on helplessly.
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kangel

19 May 14 8.24am

Quote luckybuck at 19 May 2014 2.19am

Quote Seth at 19 May 2014 1.49am

I assume you lot have seen this? [Link]

I'll raise you this:

My rivals should be hanged for treason, says Ukip candidate
[Link]

But don't worry, it's 'just a few bad apples'.

Can't wait - public scaffold in Trafalgar Square with toothless hags knitting purple and yellow 'Liberty Caps' while the European Court of Bizarre 'Judgements' looks on helplessly.

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matt_himself Matataland 19 May 14 8.40am
Quote nickgusset at 19 May 2014 12.23am Quote legaleagle at 19 May 2014 12.19am Quote nickgusset at 29 Apr 2014 10.33pm We need another argument type thread. Edited by nickgusset (29 Apr 2014 10.42pm) Well, the OP certainly succeeded in his intention...60 plus pages and no one could say the thread lacks "argument"! I like to throw in a grenade from time to time... You haven't thrown a hand grenade. You have walked in the pub, pushed the back of the biggest bloke you can find in there and then ran away when asked why did you do it. Typical Gusset behaviour. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 19 May 14 8.40am

Quote nickgusset at 19 May 2014 12.23am

Quote legaleagle at 19 May 2014 12.19am

Quote nickgusset at 29 Apr 2014 10.33pm

We need another argument type thread.
Edited by nickgusset (29 Apr 2014 10.42pm)

Well, the OP certainly succeeded in his intention...60 plus pages and no one could say the thread lacks "argument"!

I like to throw in a grenade from time to time...

You haven't thrown a hand grenade.

You have walked in the pub, pushed the back of the biggest bloke you can find in there and then ran away when asked why did you do it.

Typical Gusset behaviour.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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matt_himself Matataland 19 May 14 8.41am
Quote Seth at 19 May 2014 1.49am I assume you lot have seen this? [Link] No one answered my post about left wingers throwing bricks through UKIP candidates windows. It appears one rule exists for left and one that oppose them. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 19 May 14 8.41am

Quote Seth at 19 May 2014 1.49am

I assume you lot have seen this? [Link]

No one answered my post about left wingers throwing bricks through UKIP candidates windows.

It appears one rule exists for left and one that oppose them.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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