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| W12 16 Oct 20 12.33pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Firstly, still waiting on a response to my first post. In the meantime... We do have the right. The clue is in the ‘we’. The right! Ha. What are you talking about? Plenty of people die avoidable deaths every day, and the figure will be far higher than the tiny sample size you’re using here to try and make the generalist all immigration is bad point. Again, I’m not in favour of mass immigration, but I’m also not in favour of poorly constructed, closed loop arguments. Poorly constructed in what way and I've already answered you point on the size of the problem about in detail rather than the generalisations you use? Demographic change is a burning issue for the majority but still nobody in the mainstream will touch without having to walk on eggshells and just skirt around the issue To reiterate, again, I’m not saying immigration doesn’t cause problems. I’m just questioning the importance you’re placing on the particular recycled examples you’re giving when there are far bigger, more fundamental issues at play. Plus, the attempt to tar all immigrants and, probably for you, 1st and second generation immigrants, as responsible for all petty, sexual and violent crimes in the UK is a bit reductive. And false. The ‘indiginous’ population are of course 100% prim, proper and ‘wouldn’t do that guv’. Give me one major issue in this country that's not been made significantly worse by mass immigration and demographic change? Also, I live in central Croydon. You appear to live in West London, like me are a significantly higher rate taxpayer, send your kids to private school, and complain that because you use private healthcare you should get a rebate from the government. So who, exactly, lives in a ‘little white ethno state’ here? Yeah I live in West London because I want my kids to be safe. I'm originally from Brockley so have plenty of experience of diversity and know it's safer to avoid it. I would move out of London in a flash if I could because it's visibly turning into a s*** hole. We in the UK (unlike places like Sweden) can at least see who is committing most of the crime by published statistics. That won't last for long. I also pay a s*** load of tax for people that contribute nothing - increasingly so Since when did objectivity and balanced reasoning become anything other than the only proper way to think? There is such a thing as rightist propaganda and indoctrination as well you know. It’s not exclusive to the left, as both ‘sides’ demonstrate admirably on here daily. You trivialise the mass rape of the children of my people and suggest the numbers are insignificant. That's your idea of balanced and objective Again, all wealthy and developed nations have issues with birth control, ageing populations and the need for immigration to prop up their economy. My ethnicity and heritage is not subject to financial transactions to me. I would give up all my wealth and belongings in a heartbeat to get my country back. I'm not sure why you mention birth control? I have no interest at all in GDP btw it's no measure of the health of a nation Even Japan is slowly weakening on that. So yeah, fine, we need to encourage more kids, but you can’t force people to do so. The situation is not exclusive to the UK - it’s a well established social problem that occurs and it’s not as simple as saying ‘have more kids’ to solve it. We also have a more sophisticated economy. You think those kids are going to grow up wanting to own newsagents, pick fruit and clean toilets? No. So that's the old "we need immigrants to do all the jobs that British people won't do" argument. Why did these jobs before we had immigrants? Also, as we can see now it's "racist" for immigrants to do demeaning jobs and so they have to be artificially held up and promoted via quotas and jobs that are blocked to whites. The last six months have proven that. It’s a complex socioeconomic outcome that is hard to solve. On that basis immigration is here to stay. The last six months have proven that we will have serious and escalating civil unrest as this country is now just a number of different ethnic and racial self interest groups vying for resources and power. My point was that there will be plenty of articles and papers out there about why having more kids is important, and the issues and potential solutions around solving the developed economy problem. Not that left and centre left institutions post articles about having less kids. That is obvious, and fine There is no mainstream "right wing" at all that would speak on such important topics. Just liberal centrists larping as conservatives and virtue signalling at every opportunity why they are not racist. That tells you who control the battlefield right now and who now makes up "the establishment". If there is a "developed economy problem" by the way it's just bloated welfare states treating the indigenous people as a tax farm in order to bring in People are allowed to discuss it. If they weren’t, and it was punishable by death, then the curbs would not be being brought in. What’s not allowed is discussing it in a way that’s xenophobic, moronic and cliched. Which most on this site seem to do. Absolutely nothing wrong with saying you’re against mass immigration, just do some reading and lay your argument out properly with objective facts rather than just recycling the same old acerbic narrative. If I can do it, anyone can The current "establishment" is suicidally xeniphillic and I consider them a force of occupation. What exactly is moronic or cliched about any of my arguments? More generalisation. I never said it wasn’t happening. And the scale of it. I just don’t see it as big enough to warrant a lazy trope of ‘this is happening, therefore by extension all immigrants are bad, therefore mass immigration is bad’. There are plenty of other more relevant examples to draw on to make the anti immigration point. Who said all immigrants are bad? My point is we don't need them and the only reason I should have to give to justify not having them here is because I don't want them here and we don;t need them. They have their own homelands and it's not up to me to sort out their problems. Yeah why not? The way you’re attempting to put other peoples points across as your own is mildly comedic Maybe you should step back and look at the subject of the argument - mass immigration (en masse) is the topic, not grooming. There’s a thread for that - and yes, you’d be right, it’s obviously an imported problem (well the scale of it anyway). However is it the sole, or even main reason that mass immigration is bad? No. ‘Indiginous whites’ do plenty of bad things, cumulatively, every day. Just because they’re not the same crown doesn’t mean they can’t be made part of a comparison. "'Indiginous whites’ do plenty of bad things" - so what? I am not simplifying. I am expanding - you’re the one focusing on tiny portions of what is a very broad and complex debate, which should be the focus of this thread. It's fairly simple actually, we were never asked and diverse societies simply do not work. The solution to this is going to be very complex though and that's not going to start until people like you start accepting the massive scale of the problem. Oh certainly some of the subject matter is outrageous, but the way you’re conveying it is sensationalist. What do you mean "some of the subject matter is outrageous"?
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  SW19 CPFC  Addiscombe West 16 Oct 20 2.23pm |
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Originally posted by W12
What do you mean "some of the subject matter is outrageous"? An answer to the question. We do have the right. -- Poorly constructed because you’re just lifting and shifting established rightist narrative from elsewhere you’re not bringing anything new to the table. Not saying what you’re raising isn’t an issue, but it’s just part of it. There are bigger, more fundamental issues with mass immigration – it’s not all down to rape and pillage. -- That would take a bit of time to actually ponder on – what actually are the major issues in this country? Also would need to be done through an objective, rather than partisan lens. That requires thought rather than a knee-jerk recycled response. Will consider. -- OK. Perhaps be less preachy when talking about white ethnostates then eh? Seeing as you either live in or near one. I’ve lived in and around Croydon for 30 years and only ever had two incidents which you could consider less than safe, and they occurred in Chaldon, and Old Coulsdon. Of course, technically you’re right – but in reality unless you’re in a gang then the paranoia is not justified. Especially as you’d be sending your kids to private school anyway. I’d rather my children grew up understanding the realities and complexities of life including the risk that goes with that than cocoo ning them away in some puritanical keep up with the joneses blandness behind a financial and social firewall. They’ll be better for it when the time comes for them to have to stand on their own two feet. Even more so, considering the direction of travel is not going to change. -- You, and I, also pay a ‘s***load of tax’ for people and services that contribute significantly, and that don't contribute signficantly. So again, objectivity is useful even if you’re blinded by your own dogma. Based on, you know, reading around a bit from multiple sources rather than just the ones I agree more with, the benefits clearly outweigh the negatives. The world isn’t perfect – allowing the top 5% to claim back money for not using services and reducing their tax contributions would cause significantly more anarchy and instability. It’s also insanely selfish and short sighted. As I’ve said many times before, populism is of course a natural pushback against globalism, but if you think globalism and eventual homogenisation is not going to win out as we enter and age of tech corporates becoming the new financial and social religions you and your ilk are sorely mistaken. You can run but you can’t hide… -- ‘Trivialise’ – I’m just tired of the same old issues perpetrated by a very small section of a certain group of people, to an even smaller section of another group of people, as the main reason why immigration/mass immigration is a bad idea. It’s a contributing factor, but not anywhere near the main reason. -- ‘Your country’ – whatever that means, is long gone. In the same way someone in 1960 would opine for the 1900s, or someone in 1900 would opine for the 1850s. Change is constant. I suppose you just have to have a better understanding of the trajectory of humanity to then come to terms with the fact that things can’t just stay the same, for us anyway. Even Japan will eventually give in. -- There’s certainly more centrist/left leaning media, and yes that’s not a good thing, but it’s not the ONLY media. It’s not the ONLY voice. Also, if they were so effective, then why has there been such a resurgence of the right? The more that happens the more airtime the right get. The centre right are in power FFS, so I’m not sure I necessarily agree with that view. -- I did not say specifically that your posts were moronic, but some of them are a bit cliched. And that’s fine. But doesn’t make for a particularly interesting debate. My underlying point is you can debate the issues without resorting to xenophobia, morony or cliche. But when it comes to immigration so many do, and they wonder why people then don’t engage with their opinions. -- Well, you are, actually, saying all immigration is bad in that sentence. ‘We don’t need them’. That conclusion can only be arrived at by someone that thinks immigration, of any form, is a negative. Therefore, immigrants = bad. And there’s plenty of research about to inform you of the benefits of immigration ‘I don’t want them here and we don’t need them’ is the kind of thing my child would say. ‘It’s not up to me to sort out their problems’ – I’m alright Jack. Life is about give and take. That’s how humanity functions – through a series of compromises and exchanges. If everyone thought like you we’d be hermits. -- My point is all groups do bad things. You can’t define all immigrants as bad because of the grooming outrage. If every single immigrant was rapey (right wing line), or even if half of them were, you’d have a point. There are cultural issues among certain groups, sure, but not all of them. -- ‘We were never asked’ – if everything went to a referendum, we’d be stuck in the dark ages. This is where I sort of agree and disagree. Diverse societies can work, just not in the volumes and at the pace that has been happening. Does that mean ‘We don’t need them’. No. Does it mean we should be wiser and more selective about who comes in and for what, yes. Is that about to happen? So it seems. Trivialising a little, your solution to all this seems to be boot everyone out, jack up benefits to encourage child bearing and then wait out the ensuing economic disaster for 18 years until the kids have grown old enough to fill all the vacancies. Not going to happen. The timeline is too long, slow and incremental to ever be realistic. The direction can certainly be improved and refined, but not changed. Also, the people having more kids will be the spawn of the same serial claimants that are at it now – rich societies with a stable middle class simply aren't interested in having s***loads of kids. You can't force that. But you can always try, and fail. -- Some of the subject matter is indeed, outrageous. As in disgraceful. But in the context of your argument it’s being used as the headline reason for binning mass immigration, or really ‘we don’t need them’ any immigration. Which is nonsense.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 16 Oct 20 2.27pm |
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Come on guys. Which is it – Genocide? Or Colonisation. Or BOTH! Yay
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 16 Oct 20 2.28pm |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
I had a student claiming asylum from Nigeria. She regularly returned on holidays so it can't have been of any danger to her. She still got asylum and has full citizenship. I see it all the time. Assuming the claim was bogus in the first instance, this is ridiculous, and the sort of thing that needs to be clamped down on. Not sure how you couldn't agree with that.
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PalazioVecchio  south pole 16 Oct 20 4.48pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
the mass importation is Colonisation. when they run amok, it is the other. Just ask any Roman from circa 470 AD.
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| W12 16 Oct 20 5.39pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
An answer to the question. We do have the right. -- Poorly constructed because you’re just lifting and shifting established rightist narrative from elsewhere you’re not bringing anything new to the table. Not saying what you’re raising isn’t an issue, but it’s just part of it. There are bigger, more fundamental issues with mass immigration – it’s not all down to rape and pillage. What is the "established rightist narrative" - who is that coming from exactly? What are the bigger, more fundamental issues? That would take a bit of time to actually ponder on – what actually are the major issues in this country? Also would need to be done through an objective, rather than partisan lens. That requires thought rather than a knee-jerk recycled response. Will consider. I would appreciate your answer on this when you are done thinking. I think it's a question everyone should be asking themselves but especially liberals -- OK. Perhaps be less preachy when talking about white ethnostates then eh? Seeing as you either live in or near one. Why? I see no reason why people shouldn't live with the people they chose to and it's obviously a common law right anyway. The problem is that the choice most working class people get is either to stay where they are and live in degraded and dangerous conditions or flee somewhere else and the choice to do the latter will only last another decade or two. I’ve lived in and around Croydon for 30 years and only ever had two incidents which you could consider less than safe, and they occurred in Chaldon, and Old Coulsdon. Of course, technically you’re right – but in reality unless you’re in a gang then the paranoia is not justified. It's getting worse every year and there is nothing being proposed to reverse or even stop this trend. Especially as you’d be sending your kids to private school anyway. I’d rather my children grew up understanding the realities and complexities of life including the risk that goes with that than cocoo ning them away in some puritanical keep up with the joneses blandness behind a financial and social firewall. They’ll be better for it when the time comes for them to have to stand on their own two feet. Even more so, considering the direction of travel is not going to change. I wouldn't put my children at risk and do my best to educate them of the realities of life. I'm not throwing them to the wolves that's for sure. -- You, and I, also pay a ‘s***load of tax’ for people and services that contribute significantly, and that don't contribute signficantly. So again, objectivity is useful even if you’re blinded by your own dogma. I'm obviously talking about the ones that don't contribute significantly and certain groups as a whole clearly do not. You cannot discuss a large group of people as individuals. More generalizations. Based on, you know, reading around a bit from multiple sources rather than just the ones I agree more with, the benefits clearly outweigh the negatives. What benefits, again what exactly are you disagreeing with? The world isn’t perfect – allowing the top 5% to claim back money for not using services and reducing their tax contributions would cause significantly more anarchy and instability. It’s also insanely selfish and short sighted. Why do you keep bringing this up? As I’ve said many times before, populism is of course a natural pushback against globalism, but if you think globalism and eventual homogenisation is not going to win out as we enter and age of tech corporates becoming the new financial and social religions you and your ilk are sorely mistaken. You can run but you can’t hide… I don't intend to do either, I intend to fight this s***ty soulless utopia. -- ‘Trivialise’ – I’m just tired of the same old issues perpetrated by a very small section of a certain group of people, to an even smaller section of another group of people, as the main reason why immigration/mass immigration is a bad idea. It’s a contributing factor, but not anywhere near the main reason. What "certain group of people" are you describing? How would you characterise those? Do you not think there are large numbers of people (not a very small section) who have (and should have) huge concerns with what's going on in this country? -- ‘Your country’ – whatever that means, is long gone. In the same way someone in 1960 would opine for the 1900s, or someone in 1900 would opine for the 1850s. Change is constant. I suppose you just have to have a better understanding of the trajectory of humanity to then come to terms with the fact that things can’t just stay the same, for us anyway. Even Japan will eventually give in. My Country means England as I am English. The huge difference back in the 50's and before that is that people would still seen themselves as part of an ethnic and group collective and organised to maintain their own security whatever problems they had with each over. That's what happens with all countries outside the west as of today as that's natural and maintains human and cultural diversity. Now after decades of propaganda, immigration and underhand political dealings we are de-racinated and atomised and that needs to be reversed. -- There’s certainly more centrist/left leaning media, and yes that’s not a good thing, but it’s not the ONLY media. It’s not the ONLY voice. Also, if they were so effective, then why has there been such a resurgence of the right? The more that happens the more airtime the right get. The centre right are in power FFS, so I’m not sure I necessarily agree with that view. "The centre right are in power" that's laughable - can you name me anything the conservatives have conserved or any previous left wing legislation they have overturned? And where is this resurgence of the right. All I see is right wing people being "unpersoned" and removed off of social media. I did not say specifically that your posts were moronic, but some of them are a bit cliched. And that’s fine. But doesn’t make for a particularly interesting debate. My underlying point is you can debate the issues without resorting to xenophobia, morony or cliche. But when it comes to immigration so many do, and they wonder why people then don’t engage with their opinions. Which posts are cliched or moronic, in what way? I completely reject the premise of Xenophobia by the way. I prefer my country to others as It's an expression of myself. I doesn't mean I hate others by I have a clear preference. -- Well, you are, actually, saying all immigration is bad in that sentence. ‘We don’t need them’. That conclusion can only be arrived at by someone that thinks immigration, of any form, is a negative. Therefore, immigrants = bad. And there’s plenty of research about to inform you of the benefits of immigration ‘I don’t want them here and we don’t need them’ is the kind of thing my child would say. ‘It’s not up to me to sort out their problems’ – I’m alright Jack. Life is about give and take. That’s how humanity functions – through a series of compromises and exchanges. If everyone thought like you we’d be hermits. You didn't answer my question. Why do we need these people, what purpose do they bring to my country? You just descend into wishy washy liberal tropes about "humanity". Having a strong and united country under one culture in no way excludes "compromises and exchanges". Why should I compromise my childrens future for the children of people from another culture? Would you favour someone else's children over your own? -- My point is all groups do bad things. You can’t define all immigrants as bad because of the grooming outrage. If every single immigrant was rapey (right wing line), or even if half of them were, you’d have a point. There are cultural issues among certain groups, sure, but not all of them. "all groups do bad things" is not an argument. So what? Sure there are more and less desirable ethnic groups in my opinion based on experience but again, why do we need these people? We can also discuss what happens with these when we hit large scale automation and don't need any more Uber drivers or delivery services but that's whole other rabbit hole in -- ‘We were never asked’ – if everything went to a referendum, we’d be stuck in the dark ages. This is where I sort of agree and disagree. Diverse societies can work, just not in the volumes and at the pace that has been happening. Does that mean ‘We don’t need them’. No. Why? Does it mean we should be wiser and more selective about who comes in and for what, yes. Is that about to happen? So it seems. Trivialising a little, your solution to all this seems to be boot everyone out, jack up benefits to encourage child bearing and then wait out the ensuing economic disaster for 18 years until the kids have grown old enough to fill all the vacancies. Not going to happen. The timeline is too long, slow and incremental to ever be realistic. The direction can certainly be improved and refined, but not changed. Of course it can. Also, the people having more kids will be the spawn of the same serial claimants that are at it now – rich societies with a stable middle class simply aren't interested in having s***loads of kids. You can't force that. But you can always try, and fail. If our population continued to shrink it wouldn't be as anywhere as big a disaster of losing our ancestral homeland. It's not my biggest concern but I'm concerned it's being actively pushed along with mass immigration as a net benefit. Its just a outright lie -- Some of the subject matter is indeed, outrageous. As in disgraceful. But in the context of your argument it’s being used as the headline reason for binning mass immigration, or really ‘we don’t need them’ any immigration. Which is nonsense. Again, why can't you be specific about anything? What's outrageous or disgraceful, to who and why? Edited by SW19 CPFC (16 Oct 2020 2.24pm)
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| Belmont 16 Oct 20 5.58pm |
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Originally posted by W12
You seem to be doing all of the simplification in your tiny abstracted egalitarian mind. Sensational?, yeah I would say my reply is pretty sensational.
"and have a system of voluntary repatriation" I would be interested to know in a practical sense how would you organise this and who would you apply it to or ask this of?
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 16 Oct 20 6.52pm |
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Originally posted by W12
The right have an established narrative, as do the left. — TBC — Why? Because you were being hypocritical. — Increasing police numbers hand in hand with a no tolerance approach would be a start. As with all of these things if it starts spilling out into white communities then watch how quickly things get done. For now, they’re content with letting them stab each other. The idiocy of that is another debate entirely but I suppose they’d say you can’t pour money into everything. Keep it in the ghettos that we created. — I prefer to do more than simply educate my kids about the realities of life. Naivety, ignorance and overinflated self worth are commonly traits of children who lead wealthy, bubble wrapped lives. There is a wonderful irony in it when said children have come from parents who were once on the breadline and done good. Life experience makes you that way, not words and gated townhouses. — ‘Obviously’. Maybe so, but if you deported all the immigrants tomorrow, the vacuum would simply be filled by ‘indigenous’ scroungers. Of which there are already many. What percentage of your tax goes to people gaming the system vs. people who actually need it? It’s certainly not a significant figure, but maybe in your mind it is. — Following on... I’m disagreeing with your inference that you should pay less tax because it’s all going to immigrants gaming the system. Clearly nonsense. The proportions in your head are off. There will always be manipulation and gaming of the benefits system, nhs tourism, etc. etc. But telling society that the top 5% earners will now pay less tax and get rebates for not using state services would cause riots. It's madness. Wanting everyone else to shoulder the burden and get worse social care and services as a result is nuts. Do you not understand how destabilising that would be? It’s even worse when you claim immigrants are the reason you’d do it. If anything you and I should be paying more tax. I keep bringing it up because it’s insanely ill thought out, selfish and egotistical. If it’s that much of a ballache go and live in a tax haven. Move some accounts around.
— Even japan, the most anti-immigration country in the world needs them. And in increasing numbers. You know why – there are multiple economic reasons why. Plus, we can stop and kick everyone out, but the rest of the world will carry on bringing them in and accelerating their economies and we will get left behind. The horse has bolted, is why. It’s too late for what you’re suggesting. For so many reasons.
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| W12 16 Oct 20 7.54pm | |
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The more you post, the more I’m confused about what you actually think/believe other than being apathetic. If so, I don’t know why you bother posting this much. Your vision of the future is bleak. A teacher just got beheaded in Paris and nobody will blink an eye. Wake up matey.
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| W12 16 Oct 20 8.11pm | |
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Originally posted by Belmont
"and have a system of voluntary repatriation" I would be interested to know in a practical sense how would you organise this and who would you apply it to or ask this of? I would offer it to anyone with a dual nationality but also be looking for my government to make deals with other countries to encourage this e.g. linking an incentive to foreign aid. This would also need to be linked to a withdrawal of ridiculously generous welfare. The English should be prioritised in England. Perhaps we continue to pay people benefits for a period when they are back in their ancestral home based on a removal of their British citizenship. We need creative solutions to this.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 16 Oct 20 9.36pm |
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Originally posted by W12
The more you post, the more I’m confused about what you actually think/believe other than being apathetic. If so, I don’t know why you bother posting this much. Your vision of the future is bleak. A teacher just got beheaded in Paris and nobody will blink an eye. Wake up matey. I have no time for extremes or dogmatic opinions from anyone, regardless of 'side' or position that are almost entirely devoid of objectivity, or simply serve to lazily regurgitate the same things in the same way over and over again. I agree controlling immigration is a good thing. I disagree that we don't need any sort of immigration, mainly because of the trajectory of the world in general. Stop it all and we get left behind. I believe globalisation is the only logical outcome to an interconnected social and economic world, where technology and trillion dollar tech companies will usurp the traditional gatekeepers of power and religion. I say will, it's already well underway. And don't get me started on AI. I think technology, capitalism and free trade are the key drivers of globalisation and the fault lines in the west – everything else is simply a by product of those three things. Important, but not the main reason. It's understandably easy to get distracted by the near term but some of the issues you raise, in my opinion, are done so in an exaggerated fashion and only serve to distract from the bigger problems coming over the horizon. Immigration, really, in the grand scheme of things, apart from helping us get to that horizon faster, is irrelevant. It would happen with or without it. Immigration will not cause the next civil war, if there even is one. I'm not sure my vision is particularly bleak. It's realistic. Your mind, however, seems pretty sad and paranoid. Mine certainly isn't. It seems to me that you spend most of your time worrying about tax, immigrants and pining for the old world. I'd suggest a better use of your time would be thinking proactively about the future – for example what professions should you encourage your kids towards to give them the best chance when everything rapidly starts to change. Either that, or get yourself into a position of power where you can actually make a difference rather than whining about it like an old man shouting at a cloud. Otherwise, you're literally wasting your time and energy on things you cannot change that would be better spent elsewhere. We only have a short time knocking about on this micro plastic stuffed ball, better to make it count. 'No one will blink an eye' – I mean, utter nonsense. But yeah, apathetic. And, eyes wide open brah. I'm just not staring at my shoes.
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| dannyboy1978 17 Oct 20 4.42pm |
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Another refugee. Why do they come to western countries when they hate everything about the west . Pork
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